shooting serie in 9 pics

genuasho.jpg, image/jpeg, 1536x1152

shooting serie in 9 pics

NON HO PIU'
PAROLE!!!!

show us the photos before the shot, or stop manipulating information at your aim.

legittima difesa? allora vuol dire che quando qualcuno e' circondato e picchiato dalla polizia, ha il diritto di sparare ai poliziotti per legittima difesa? oppure no? ci spieghi, gentile ministro, la differenza, se e' in grado di farlo.

I'm just sorry I don't have the guts to go to Genoa and scream and yell my rage and disappointment against them.

Not enough death? Shut Down Capitalism...
Capitalism REALLY kills... KILL CAPITALISM!

I would hope the previous poster means they want to scream and yell at the thugs who are attacking police with heavy metal objects, then bleating like outraged sheep when their violence is returned to them.

capitalism has reached such a level that its blatent acts of murder and GENOCIDE can only be answered with Direct Action....as we can blatently see if you resist they will shoot you dead...and if you don't you'r as good as dead.
We must all FIGHT!

LE COSIDDETTE "FORZE DELL'ORDINE" ITALIANE
SONO SOLO UN MANIPOLO DI SPORCHI ASSASSINI
AL SERVIZIO DI UNO STATO FASCISTA

Yeah! Right On!

Smash Capitalism! And replace it with ... erm... errr... well... you know .... well anyway smash it! Smash it all! Yeah!

But I can keep my DVD collection, right?

una verguenza.
Se ha creado el estado de todo para el pueblo pero sin el pueblo...
y el pueblo gracias a DIOS, dice que no.

arriba los rojos.

I don't even give that thug the benefit of the doubt that he was plain stupid... What he was is an attempted murderer.. as were the other rioters attacking police with bricks, boards and pipes... They all need to be jailed for a long time (If I were the police I would take civil action against them also... maybe a few million dollar civil suits would bankrupt these hooligans so that they couldn't travel and wreak so much havoc!!!)

I commend the police for their bravery... maybe they need to be more heavy handed and arrest anyone near Genoa who are wearing face masks and helmets and brandishing pipes, sticks etc.

siamo già in dittatura, anche se i media fanno di tutto per farci credere che viviamo in uno stato democratico.
L'assassino non è solo il militare ma tutti quelli che sono dietro.

ma come fate a giustificare quel pazzo con l'estintore in mano ?!? se non moriva lui sarebbe morto un carabiniere magari e allora sareste stati contenti ? perchè quel teppista non se n'è stato a casa ? voleva opporsi al g8 ? poteva sfilare pacificamente come molte altre persone !!!
COME FATE A DIFENDERE UNO DEL GENERE !!!

?Qué pasa?porque tanta mugre para los y las anarquistas.El capitalismo no se reforma se destruye.Acaso el manifestante muerto era anarquista?o incontrolado pq se ve que estaba con más gente atacando a los asesinos -pistoleros-policias...
Mientras no somos peligrosos no perderemos nada y mientras no perdemos nada no vamos a ser nunca peligrosos.
Los primeros que pillaran deben ser los progresistas,bomberos de la guerra social.

SI ESTO NO SE ARREGLA, GUERRA GUERRA GUERRA.

Non lo so.. io sono un pacifista, in effetti sono un cristiano di sinistra (molti di voi forse mi odieranno). Eh sì.. leggittima difesa... pensate a quel pischello carabiniere come può stare di merda adesso.. bè sì, quel compagno aveva un estintore, capite?, un pericolosissimo estintore.. MA CAZZO! MA, AH CAZZONE! SEI UN CARRAMBA, E DOPO MESI DI ADDESTRAMENTO NON SAI FERMARE UN RAGAZZO CON UNO STUPIDO ESTINTORE IN MANO??? MA CHE CAZZO CI STAI A FARE A GENOVA? NON LO SAPEVI BLOCCARE? ED ECCO CHE COME REAZIONE ALLA TUA IMPOTENZA SESSUALE TIRI FUORI LA TUA PISTOLETTA DI MERDA E DA SKIFOSO QUALE SEI GLI SPARI IN FACCIA NON UNA , MA DUE VOLTE!! E NON CONTENTO TU ED IL TUO CAMERATA, RIPASSATE SU QUEL POVERO CORPO SENZA VITA, CON LA VOSTRA JEEP DEL CAZZO... mah, l'impero non si è mai estinto.
E intanto i feriti a Genova continuano a crescere. Ma che senso ha tutto questo? Avanti Compagni, Amici, Fratelli non ci avranno mai.

chachachao@ciaoweb.it

Spero che adesso la gente comune non consideri tutti gli anarchici come teppisti, perchè non è assolutamente così.

Volete cambiare il mondo? Allora smettetela...smettiamola.
Dobbiamo migliorare come persone...e i fatti lo dimostrano.
Tutto questo non serve...non serve a nulla. La fermezza delle proprie opinioni non si esprime brandendo estintori o pistole...

Non è sventolare la bandiera con la faccia di Bob Marley che ci renderà migliori...nè servirà a migliorare le condizioni di quelli che diciamo di voler tutelare...

Pensateci...ci vuole più coraggio ad abbracciare un vero impegno che a lanciare un sasso o una molotov protetti dalla confusione o da un passamontagna.

Ricordatevi di GANDHI...

Con Amore

Marco Mura

Ci troviamo in uno stato in cui l'omicidio viene utilizzato per intimorire e successivamente viene giustificato, con garanzie precise a difesa del giovane assassino (nonché disumano carabiniere), al fine di convincere con la falsa informazione che l'atto compiuto è stato realmente fortuito, che il capo di stato è davvero addolorato, che il presidente del consiglio ha rispolverato, e con lui ministro ed il capo della polizia, un'usanza che da 24 anni si trovava nel dimenticatoio dell'immaginario democratico-liberale, che da ieri si è ritrovato di fronte ad una spietata repressione che, come sottolineano le parole di un tale Fini (che implicitamente sembra congratularsi con il suo pupillo), è solo all'inizio della sua imminente e violenta amplificazione.
Chi è cieco di fronte ad una tale evidenza può considerarsi senz'anima alcuna ed anche sordo di fronte a chi chiaramente esprime le sue intenzioni di fare una pulizia di tutti coloro che non sono daccordo con i violenti capi che comandano cecchini di tale portata.

DEAREST BROTHERS AND SISTERS
WHAT YOU RESIST PERSISTS...IN THE WORLD OF DUALITY THAT WE LIVE IN, FOR THERE TO BE A CONFLICT THERE MUST BE TWO SIDES...IN RESISTING THE GLOBALIZATION MOVEMENT WE GIVE ENERGY TO IT...STOP RESISTING BUT ALSO WE MUST STOP PARTICIPATING...THE ONLY WAY THE 'AUTHORITY' GETS ITS POWER IS THROUGH US GIVING IT TO THEM...STOP USING THE BANKS...STOP VOTING....STOP ANY ACTION THAT YOU FEEL DOESN'T RESONATE WITH WHAT YOU WOULD LIKE TO SEE MANIFEST IN THE WORLD...ESPECIALLY WORK TOWARDS NOT GIVING ENERGY TO YOUR FEAR....AND START GIVING ALL YOUR ENERGY TO THINGS THAT YOU WANT TO SEE IN THE WORLD...THE BLACK EMPORER WILL BURN HIMSELF OUT WITHOUT OUR CONTRIBUTIONS...AND THE ONLY REAL WEAPON THEY HAVE IS FEAR....FEAR NOT, LOVE...THOSE THAT DO TERRIBLE THINGS DON'T KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING...THEY NEED LOVE AND COMPASSION....THESE ARE THE ONLY ENERGIES THAT CAN HEAL....OUR ITALIAN BROTHER GAVE HIS LIFE, LETS TAKE THE POSITIVE FROM HIS SACRIFICE....HAVE FAITH MY FRIENDS, THERE IS A DIVINE PLAN AT WORK..PEACE LOVE AND HAPPINESS

> Action!
> by David Leahy 2:11pm Sat Jul 21 '01
>
> Yeah! Right On!

> Smash Capitalism! And replace it with
> ... erm... errr... well... you know .... well anyway
> smash it! Smash it all! Yeah!

You seem to suggest that Carlo Giuliani had not
thought seriously about alternative economic models.
Chances are he *did* have some good ideas. Before
he was assassinated.

You're in favour of rational discussion about economic
models? Well then, read what the demonstrators in Genoa
have been discussing:

http://www.genoa-g8.org/gpf-eng.htm

And if you really want a specific non-centralised,
highly flexible system with numerous built-in feedbacks,
try reading and discussing the participative economics
model:

http://www.parecon.org

> But I can keep my DVD collection, right?

A lot of the best technology is non-capitalist, in fact, anarchic:
GNU/linux.

http://www.gnu.org

You'll still have DVD collections in the better world we are
building. But maybe the content will be more interesting.

www.genoa-g8.org/gpf-eng.htm

Estos fascistas asesinos de mierda llamados 8 gilipollas ( G8 ), FMI, Banco Mundial, Bush, etc,.. que se creen que pueden gobernar el mundo a su antojo, merecerian que les hicieran a ellos lo que sus pistoleros hicieron con nosotros asesinando a un muchacho que luchaba contra la dictadura fascista impuesta por ellos. Quien se creen que son? Alguien les ha legitimado para que nos gobiernen y destruian nuestro planeta? Hemos podido votarlos alguna vez para darles el permiso para poder fabricar armas y escudos antimisiles? Les ha votado alguien para que puedan fabricar mas CO2, calentar i destruir nuestro planeta?

GLOBALIZACION DEMOCRATICA -SI ( GD yes )
GLOBALIZACION FASCISTA -NO ( GF not )

FIGHT AGAINS THE FASCIST GLOBALIZATION, IT'S TIME !!!
TOMORROW COULD BE TOO MUCH LATE !!!

If you analyze the picture, clearly the cop was hardly able to aim at a lower part of the body than the head. No doubt he has to shoot.

Complimenti, belle testine di cazzo, siamo riusciti -per colpa vostra e delle vostre cazzo di bandiere nere- a diventare cio' che i media e questo governo fascista volevano da noi....un movimenti violento, una massa di teppisti, capaci solo di distruggere una citta' e provocare scontri e vittime...MA CHE STRACAZZO PENSATE DI RISOLVERE? CHE CAZZO VI PASSA PER LA TESTA? SIETE CONTENTI DI ESSERVI ANCORA UNA VOLTA FATTI MANIPOLARE DAI POTERI FORTI? NON SIETE ALTRO CHE DEI BUFFONI!
Inoltre siete anche riusciti a compromettere tutto cio' che aveva fatto il gsf (come se non bastasse). Non avete le palle di essere superiori alle provocazioni, ma ci cascate dentro come dei polli ogni volta.
I fascisti non avranno mai alleati piu' utili di voi.
'Fanculo black block.

E' veramente incredibile come, in piena "democrazia" possa succedere ciò.
Si rimane allibiti e con tanta confusione e amarezza.

"You seem to suggest that Carlo Giuliani had not
thought seriously about alternative economic models.
Chances are he *did* have some good ideas. Before
he was assassinated."


Absolutely hilarious!

And, armed with his prophetic insight into how to solve the worlds ills through alterating the contract between capital and labour, channeling the world economic system into a utopian ideal of equality, at the same time achieving prosperity without incentive, he picked up the nearest big piece of metal and threw it at a policeman.

where are the other 6 pics from the sequence???

We cant bear the way they kill us, every day in every country, its not the first dead, we have a lot of deads since 1994 here in mexico. we just cant get in uor knees and cry we must fight even harder, all of our dead brothers deserves bieng kept in our memory.
Please remember the peace has finished, it is war, and we must won.

On this site not all the photo's of yesterday's shootingincident are shown. So far I have seen the pictures
the van of the caribianierri was blocked by demonstrators and attackted. Young men surrounded by people attacking them
, let me be clear attacking human beings that serve us by proctecting us and upholding the laws of our democracys Those men get afraid, no were to go and then one of them sees a man standing with an big heavy object that will come to wards him, he decideds to shoot that man, for him it must have been him or me.

That the van later drove over the wounded man is very sad.

All the violence in Genua is obselite, people get hurt, human beings, normal citizens are the victims of that violence peopel like you and me.

How must that parents of that men that died feel, or the officers in that van, they all suffer because of this absolute madness.

Stop the violence at summits before the whole cause of the protests gets lost and loses it support and sympathy of normal workers lik myself.

"You seem to suggest that Carlo Giuliani had not
thought seriously about alternative economic models."

Perhaps Mr Giuliani should have dedicated some thought to assaulting a policeman while that policeman had a bead drawn on him.


Had he actually *thought* about his actions for any fraction of a moment, perhaps he would still be around today.

Ma un carabiniere, sia pure un pischello di 20 anni, non avrà studiato per fare il suo cazzo di lavoro? ma per autodifesa si può sparare IN TESTA e per ben DUE VOLTE? Allora uno non sceglie di fare il carabiniere, và a lavorare davvero.

LA DEMOCRAZIA, GIA' AGONIZZANTE IN ITALIA, E' FINITA IERI CON DUE COLPI DI PISTOLA IN TESTA!
CIAO CARLO!

LA DEMOCRAZIA IN ITALIA ,GIA' DA TEMPO AGONIZZANTE,E' MORTA IERI CON 2 COLPI IN TESTA.
CIAO CARLO!

I am so saddened and sickened
by the murder of Carlo Guiliani.
This is not self-defense by police,
this is homocide! Corporate controled
government, corporate controlled police.
It makes me sick!
They starve the people, they oppress the people,
they kill the people, and I will not stop
fighting their system even though their
MURDER/OPRESSION is more blatent then ever!

The fire extinguisher was being thrown at a police jeep that had repeatedly been driving straight into lines of protesters. The police jeep could have driven away at ANY moment, there was nothing blocking it's movement (clearly visible in most photos, and highlighted by the fact they reversed over the body after shooting him). The policeman shot him in the HEAD, TWICE any armed police officer knows to aim at the chest as it stops the possibility of the bullet opassing through the body and causing more casualties, also decreasing the chance of the shot being fatal, if you can't make a relatively SAFE shot, don't make the shot! Two shots was unneccesary. I would find shooting in self defense more acceptable if it was more obviously done in self defense.
The fire extinguisher would not have gone far if thrown, if it had hit the policeman i doubt it would have caused SERIOUS injury, the policeman replied with a lethal response to a non-lethal situation. The driver could have driven away at any time, avoiding the situation, the driver could have made the decision NOT to have DRIVEN into a line of protestors. The acts of the police are both irresponsible and akin to murder. I accept that some of the acts of violence commited by the protestors were excessive, however the Police jeep deliberately drove into a dangerous situation, their job is to keep the peace and enforce the law, it is also to do it in a respionsible and sensible way, they did not do so. Their acts were absurd and their response is, in my mind, no better than murder.

My support goes to all the protestors in Genoa. My highest regards go to the peaceful protestors, yet i refuse to condemn violence in the face of massive police provocation, brutality and murder.

Bonobo

Como é possivel tanta cobardia, capitalistas filhos da puta. PUNK 4 EVER.

I'm upset, mad about what happened. It's a shame that a guy may be killed by another guy thrown on the street by some one who probably will never pay for this. Let's not this martyr fade away without reflecting upon it: may Carlo's death become the beginning of a new protest, serious, pacific and strong! The people under siege in the Red Zone shall be judged for it: pretending to be sad and wearing a black suit for TV is not enough.

"The fire extinguisher was being thrown at a police jeep that had repeatedly been driving straight into lines of protesters."

Absolute rubbish. Police dont try to drive through civilians while the worlds media is focused on them. The action the officer took is clearly in self defence. Stop hiding in fantasy and join the real world.

"The police jeep could have driven away at ANY moment, there was nothing blocking it's movement (clearly visible in most photos, and highlighted by the fact they reversed over the body after shooting him)."

More crap and you also contradict yourself. In the other pictures you can see a concrete wall blocking the car. If they had reversed in order to clear the wall, they WOULD have run into the rioters. They were trapped, which is why the rioters were able to march up to them carrying heavy weights. The fact that they then reversed over the body of the Retard points to the fact that reverse was the only direction they could move in, moron. And they got out out of that situation the only way they could.

Or wait, isnt it true that they got out and did a little irish jig on his body, chanting Nazi slogans??

"The policeman shot him in the HEAD, TWICE any armed police officer knows to aim at the chest as it stops the possibility of the bullet opassing through the body and causing more casualties, also decreasing the chance of the shot being fatal, if you can't make a relatively SAFE shot, don't make the shot!"

Here we are, in our comfy chairs, sipping a nice cup of tea, pontificating about how people should act in a terrifying situation we can only begin to imagine. Of course, the officer should have put down his gun, hugged the rioter, apologised for his crimes against the third world, and prostrated himself at the mercy of the baying mob.

He did what I would do - fire at the guy and make sure he went down, rather than me. If you seriously think you would do any different in his situation, youd probably end up dead.

"Two shots was unneccesary. I would find shooting in self defense more acceptable if it was more obviously done in self defense."

Maybe the policeman should have shot off the guys little finger as a warning. Or grazed his hair, and given him a centre parting. Life isnt the bloody Matrix you know.

"The fire extinguisher would not have gone far if thrown, if it had hit the policeman i doubt it would have caused SERIOUS injury, the policeman replied with a lethal response to a non-lethal situation."

And im sure that calculation went through the officers mind in the seconds he had to assess which rioter was the biggest threat, analyse the average weight of a full metal fire extinguisher, the likely velocity judging by the size of the attacker, the likely point of impact on his body, the possible fractures of chest, arm or leg (or head), the likelyhood that having sustained such an injury that he would be able to defend himself against further violent assualt, etc ...

He did what any sane man would do. He stopped the Retard from potentially killing him.

I would suggest that we put your theory to the test. I have fire extinguishers in my office. You could sit on the tailgate of my Mondeo, and we could find out just how much force I would need to exert to render you incapable of defending yourself in that situation. This would be useful, as we could then petition the police forces of the world to issue new guidelines to officers who get caught up such situations. It would also be immensely enjoyable.


"The driver could have driven away at any time, avoiding the situation, the driver could have made the decision NOT to have DRIVEN into a line of protestors. The acts of the police are both irresponsible and akin to murder."

Fantasy. The driver did make the decision not to drive into protestors, hence they were trapped and attacked by the mob. When they could get clear, they did reverse, over the body of the Retard. I doubt the driver could even see that the body was there, and just tried to get the hell out of there. Id do exactly the same.


"I accept that some of the acts of violence commited by the protestors were excessive, however the Police jeep deliberately drove into a dangerous situation, their job is to keep the peace and enforce the law, it is also to do it in a respionsible and sensible way, they did not do so."

Im running out of words to describe your stupidity. So these police, fallible human beings, are supposed to be perfect, and take resposponsibilty and blame for the consequences of a mob of Retards causing a riot??

La violencia no es de ésta época.... Carlo, tu has caido por culpa de ella!

La violencia ...sólo engendra violencia, nosotros queremos un mundo dónde la harmonía y el consenso sean el paradigma de la actividad cotidiana a todos los niveles de la sociedad...Carlo, tú has perdido lo más preciado de tí, la vida, para que todos podamos ver el tunel de la muerte!!

la violencia no estaba en tu extintor, fué diseñada por aquellos que "imaginaron" la cumbre del G-8 como una cumbre medieval, con sus empalizdas, sus 20.000 agentes provocadores y sus miles de para-militares... que invitaban a los jóvenes como tú a "derribar el muro de la incomprensión, de la mediocridad, de la ignorancia, del poder absoluto"...Carlo tu has muerto por querer demostrar la absurda razón de ser jefe de gobierno de unos países X que pretenden controlar a todo el planeta.

La violencia no estaba en la inmensa mayoría de los 100.000 manifestantes que estabaís en Génova, la violencia estaba sentada alrededor de una mesa dentro de la zona roja decidiendo la selección de cargas policiales contra los miles de manifestantes pacíficos que queríais derribar el "muro de la vergüenza" que habían ideado para demostraros que eran inexpugnables... menuda "charlotada" la reunión del g-8 con sus baterías anti-misiles y la "ezquizofrenia" del Sr. Bush que ascendió al poder mediante mil chanchullos y, que desde esa cuestionada presidencia, autoridad, nos quiere imponer su escudo anti-misiles en el espacio, su negativa al tratado de Kyoto, su defensa, repito "ezquizofrénica", de las políticas del FMI, de la OMC, su pertinaz y antinatural imposición de las políticas de autodestrucción del planeta, su absoluta actitud fascista al condenar, deliberadamente a la muerte a decenas de millones de seres humanos en todo el mundo.... La violencia estaba en la actitud "colaboracionista" de los gobernantes europeos que se pliegan ante sus dictados y del Sr. Blair punta de lanza de sus políticas en nuestro continente, él un "socialdemócrata" (?) Ellos son los violentos, los intransigentes, los que empujan a parte de nuestra juventud a acciones "de violencia", pero, un extintor, preparado teóricamente, para soportar 50 veces la fuerza de la carga que contiene... no justifican los dos tiros que recibistes en la cara... y luego que te pasaran las dos ruedas de ese vehículo de unas 1,7 Tn sobre el cuerpo, quizás el que disparó sólo fué el brazo ejecutor del que conducía el vehículo que le gritaba: dispara, disparale a ese cabrón... Tu has muerto para que comprendamos la necesidad de la no-violencia activa...
Has muerto para que todos entendamos que estamos pagando los sueldos de unas personas, las fuerzas del orden /desorden que deben de estar enfermos mentalmente y nadie contempla que han de tener vigilancia siquiatrica permanente, porque esa doble personalidad no es nada saludable: una persona no puede ser un "ciudadano normal" y a su vez un sádico que apalea a otro ciudadano....eso se llama ezquizofrenia y es una enfermedad mental, según los casos, de alto riesgo para la convivencia social...y, no lo es para el ejercicio de ese "trabajo" (?)

sí, Carlo tu has muerto por todo eso... descanses en paz...

Y a tu familia y seres queridos... todo mi cariño, y mi respeto... de corazón

ACAB

You said it yourself David: The Police are fallible human beings. They did the wrong thing. They're not above the law, they're not above morality or responsibility.

And the Jeep HAD driven into the lines of protesters. Your point that they wouldn't do something like that in the glare of the global media is over negated by events such as footage of Police officers beating the CAMERA CREWS of the global media. Anyone who watched any number of news reports would have seen it. Just look at more footage of the Police punching, kicking and beating with batons single protesters while curled up on the floor, watch them chase after fleeing protesters and beating them as they RUN AWAY. It's retaliation and revenge, not policing. The Police commit disgusting acts whether the media is present or not. Police are Police, they are there to do a job, when they fuck up and shoot someone, they are doing their job badly, yesterday they fucked up.


Okay, after seeing more photos i have seen that there was a wall in front of the jeep, but reversing would have been a completely viable option. If you reverse in a motor vehicle people move out of the way, they don't stand still. If you shoot at someone from point blank range they can't dodge.

You don't need to do complex equations to understand that if someone has a very heavy object and wishes to throw it, it's not going very far.

Yeah, it IS nice to be sitting at home pontificating about correct Police practice. And it's nice to know that there is such thing as a warning shot, or the shout to "halt!" etc. When someone is pointing a gun at your face you're gonna stop what you're doing, why didn't the Police officer do this? Oh, i suppose you're going to say that it was a split second decision, it was a terrifying situation, it was too hard to decide to sya "Stop!" The officer acted on impulse. The split second decision, the impulse, the terrifyied reaction was to KILL. There were other options, the officer didn't take them. He probably does have grounds for diminished responsibility, but what ghe did was wrong.

Bonobo

Read with interest many of the comments below (scrolled through the others that were written by the impressionable morons with little independent thought). After witnessing second hand on the internet and in various media forms the various acts of irrelevant violence that have marred the protests at international gatherings such as the G8, IMF, WTO, FTAA etc., it is obvious that this kind of result was bound to happen. Put together bands of roving hoodlums who descend upon these meetings, a media after the next scene of violence that will pump their ratings and groups of business and governmental leaders that have lost touch with their constituencies, the end result necessarily needed to culminate in a death like this. How unfortunate for the truely non-violent protesters who are trying to express their concerns with various elements of the world economic system that they are repeatedly drowned out by small violent groups of budding criminals who feel that acting out the statement "SMASH THE STATE!" will actually bring out about meaningful change. My condolences to the family of the criminal who was shot but at present I feel that the policeman who was forced to fire his pistol and take the rioter's life deserves some compassion as well,especially given the fact that the government of Italy appears to be bringing charges of manslaughter against him.

These photos show the police officer is protecting himself. If I had a guy approaching me with a fire bottle as this officer did, I would have used deadly force to protect myself. There is a right way, and a wrong way to protest. This was a scene that couild have been classified as a riot.

After Seattle and Sweden, we should have seen this coming.
For some reason there is always a few who are not protesting
anything in particular, but those who want to simply fight
with the police. I simply cannot understand the thought pattern of these people.

However, though these people are wrong, I do not beleive that the Italians train these men to handle a situation like this by shooting unarmed protestors. This action will only make the situation worse.

The guy who shot this man was 20 years old, obviously afraid, but certainly not correct in his actions and certainly not well trained or mature enough to handle this correctly. He will suffer as well for his actions for the rest of his life.

This is the 21st century, why don't all these leaders meet using video conferencing or something! I cannot imagine these violent protestors will not just go on to the next meeting, or football match for that matter!

pagherete caro..pagherete tutto!
pagherete caro..pagherete tutto!
pagherete caro..pagherete tutto!
pagherete caro..pagherete tutto!
pagherete caro..pagherete tutto!
merde infami...
pagherete caro..pagherete tutto!

ci sono centinaia di modi per fermare una persona aggressiva senza sparargli in testa o perlomeno senza provocargli ferite mortali!!!E LA POLIZIA E' ADDESTRATA APPOSTA PER FARE QUESTO.OLTRETUTTO NON ERA NECESSARIO QUESTO ECCESSO DI AUTODIFESA PERCHE' SE IN SITUAZIONI TALI NON SEI CAPACE DI MANTENERE L'AUTOCONROLLO E' MEGLIO CHE VAI A FARE LO SPAZZINO,NON IL POLIZZIOTTO!

C'era una volta, in tempi non sospetti, una canzone dei Nuovi Briganti che diceva: "il carabiniere non fa un mestiere, ma è uno schiavo del potere... non serve, non protegge e non fa rispettare la legge!" Probabilmente senza episodi come quello di Carlo queste parole potrebbero sembrare esagerate, deliranti illazioni di fanatici esaltati... Strano quanto possano coincidere alle volte fanatismo e realtà dei fatti.... Ormai tutto è finito: buon ritorno a casa presidente Bush jr, lo scudo spaziale l'aspetta.... è tempo di giocare un pò coi soldatini!
CCCP-Fedeli alla linea

Kent Burnam vomited:
>If I had a guy approaching me with a fire bottle as this
>officer did, I would have used deadly force to protect
>myself.
die

One day we'll have to shoot too, and to be shot. It cannot continue like this. Capitalism is not about equality. And it's neither about something great and rich. It's about numeric fertility, not about fullfillment and intensity. It has nothing to see with friendship; neither is it full of that great mystery that make life even more tasteful. It is not about freedom. I am for a friendship that is between equal human being, and toward an environnement, a true citizenship, based on self-consciousness and free choice, and respect. Capitalism is not about that. It has killed people since the french revolution and it is still killing with greater weapons. We'll have to shoot and to be shot.

Patrick Poulin, Montréal. maxmerika@caramail.com

Un'altra ingiustizia... ed a questa non vi è rimedio. Quando la morte diventa insegnamento, inizia la rivoluzione.

From the full series of photos it looks
like the MP's are way in front of the
riot cops running people over and waving
guns around.
That fact alone would make carlo a hero for
resisting the Nazi Swine
BRAVO COMMRADE!!!

Impacchettare il globo con una logica precisa e attenta di una scatolarizzazione globale ,stringere il tutto con lacci ben costruiti stretti saldamente da otto piccoli nani con l'obiettivo di inibire lo scardinamento degli ingranaggi,soffocare ogni tentativo di allentare quei lacci creando sistemi scatolari di repressione.......ecco parte della nuova globopolitica .Ed ecco che ancora quei lacci ,in uno dei tanti momenti in cui vengono più fortemente tesi si macchiano di sangue,certo,una piccola goccia,ma che basta a colmare di un fluido rosso la morte in una squallida scatola asfaltata,nera,come i piccoli strumenti di morte che vi formicolano ..
scardiniamo il sistema
giorno per giorno azione diretta!

WHO ARE THESE IDIOTS ON HERE DEFENDING THE PIG'S ACTIONS?? ARE YOU ALL RETARDED OR SOMETHING??

SO WHAT WAS THE PROTESTER GOING TO DO WITH THAT EXTINGUISHER?? WAS HE GOING TO BEAT THE PIG UP TO DEATH WITH IT????? I DON'T THINK SO, YOU PATHETIC MORONS!! EVEN IF HE HAD THROWN IT INTO THE JEEP, THAT DOESN'T GIVE THE PIG THE RIGHT TO KILL HIM!!!!!!

HIS LIFE WAS NOT THREATENED BY THE STUPID EXTINGUISHER, THAT'S SUCH BULLSHIT!! HE DIDN'T HAVE TO SHOOT HIM IN THE HEAD! OF COURSE HE COULD HAVE AIMED TO INJURE, NOT KILL!

HE COULD HAVE EVEN SHOT SOME ROUNDS INTO THE AIR AND EVERYONE WOULD HAVE RAN AWAY. HE HAD A VARIETY OF OPTIONS, BUT HE CHOSE TO BE A COLD-BLOODED MURDERER BECAUSE HE KNEW HE COULD GET AWAY WITH IT ANYWAY!!

BRAVI PERCHE' NON FATE VEDERE IL RESTO DELLA MARMAGLIA CHE ASSEDIAVA LA JEEP DELLA BENEMERITA E CHE SICURAMENTE IN MODO CIVILE E NON VIOLENTO AVREBBERRO FATTO A PEZZI I MILITARI ALL'INTERNO DELLA STESSA .
MA FORSE LE FORZE DELL'ORDINE DOVEVANO FARSI AMMAZZARE PER IL PIACERE DEI CEREBROLESI MANIFESTANTI NEL NOME DELLA NON VIOLENZA.
CARI ANTI G8 SIETE VOI AD AVERE DICHIARATO GUERRA NON LE FORZE DELL'ORDINE .
IMPARATE A FARE VERAMENTE DISOBBEDIENZA CIVILE E NON VIOLENTA PERCHE' A QUANTO PARE NON SAPETE DA CHE PARTE SI INCOMINCIA.AVETE FATTO LA FIGURA CHE VI MERITATE ED AVETE AVUTO IL MARTIRE CHE TANTO AGOGNAVATE.FALSI E BUFFONI CHE NON SIETE ALTRO SPERO CHE VI ARMINO FINO AI DENTI E POI VI PRENDANO A BASTONATE PER VEDERE LA VOSTRA REAZIONE. SE MENTRE VI STANNO LINCIANDO STARETE FERMI A FARVI AMMAZZARE A BASTONATE ALLORA IL CARABINIERE HA SBAGLIATO ED E' UN ASSASSINO SE VI DIFENDERETE ALLORA AVRA FATTO GIUSTIZIA.
CHE DIO VI BENEDICA.

Clearly, this shooting was a murder by police and the world is outraged!

Drop your guns, coward cops, and fight like the rest of us.

This police murder will not go unchecked and will likely lead to an escalation of necessary self-defense tactics against the murderous cops.

NO JUSTICE, NO PEACE!

Quello che è accaduto è grave, più grave ancora fare finta di non volere incolpare qualcuno, sentirsi liberi di pensare lo stato d'animo delle due parti, allontanandosi dall'idea che un fatto del genere potesse capitare a tutti noi.
Mesi di preparazione per fare di questo evento un carosello di immagini pubbliche dove i protestanti sono " soprattutto giovani e teppisti pochi pacifisti le forze dell'ordine fanno solo il loro lavoro e i potenti si applicano affinche tutti possano essere sentiti".

La storia dei otto potenti che resesi conto della marea nascente all'inizio delle pr3parazioni stabiliscono un patto segreto con le forze dell'ordine ( la montatura dei black block ne sarebbe un incastro perfetto visto che Vittorio Agnoletto-citando il caso più sentito- ribadisce più volte di non conoscerli ne personalmente ne tramite l'associazione e che anche ne è rimasto pure vittima) non è poi così fasulla se si ripensa a qualche mese fa, di preciso alle elezioni in cui l'attuale governo spingeva l'opinione pubblica a cercare nella maleducazione di sinistra una sorta di " pensierini delle elementari".Qui di sinistra non si parla, direttamente.
Si parla al pubblico a quelli che hanno assistito a questa atroce esibizione come ad un grande fratello con tematiche popolari.
Domani vedremo che succederà
sicuramente il cuore di chi ha vinto solo con la propria presenza
sarà ancora più caldo, speriamo che da uno di questi non cada altro sangue.

ASÍ LO HAN QUERIDO. PUES ESTA VA A SER LA RESPUESTA. QUE NO SE EXTRAÑEN DE QUE LA LUCHA VAYA A LLEGAR TAMBIEN AL AMBITO MAS LOCAL Y REGIONAL. HAY QUE EMPEZAR A ACTUAR A NIVEL LOCAL CONTRA ELLOS, TODOS TENEMOS CERCA DE DONDE VIVIMOS OBJETIVOS PUNTUALES QUE CON UNA ACTIVIDAD CONTINUA SE PUEDE MACHACAR A ESTOS GOBIERNOS DICTATORIALES Y A SUS AMIGAS MULTINACIONALES. ES LA HORA Y ESTO TIENE QUE CAMBIAR.

dear carlo and friends, my heart is torn over your ultimate sacrifice you have given. i believe in an eye for an eye. you will never be forgotten in my life or in the history of this crazy world. i vow justice will be sought for you,your friends, family and the cause that created this tragedy.

Vorrei chiedere al ministro dell'interno come può essere possibile che si mandi in una situazione di tensione prevedibilissima come quella del g8 a Genova carabinieri VENTENNI ,inesperti ed assolutamente incapaci di gestire momenti critici come quello che ha causato la morte di un giovane, in quel momento esagitato dalle circostanze, ma non certo da GIUSTIZIARE con un colpo in fronte. Magari un uomo di esperienza avrebbe mantenuto la calma e sparare in aria, o tutt'alpiù ad una gamba, e forse un autista esperto non sarebbe rimasto isolato con la sua jeep del cazzo, preda dei manifestanti, come un COGLIONE qualunque.
Chi è posto a difendere l'ordine pubblico nelle nostre città? Babyrambo esaltati e frustrati che non vedono l'ora di tirare fuori il pezzo e metterlo in bocca a qualcuno?
FORZA ITALIA!!!!

"WHO ARE THESE IDIOTS ON HERE DEFENDING THE PIG'S ACTIONS?? ARE YOU ALL RETARDED OR SOMETHING??"

1) Stop shouting.

2) On this board, a 'Retard' has been commonly defined as a rioter who, being unable to express himself through peaceful means, has resorted to violence, for example, deciding to commit attempted murder with a heavy metal object. Retards typically have apologists who defend them in newsgroups by demonising police, and pretending that their own personal failures are the fault of an unseen 'world elite', in much the same way that the Nazis demonised the Jews, and furthered the myth of a Jewish conspiracy. "That way madness lies"

"SO WHAT WAS THE PROTESTER GOING TO DO WITH THAT EXTINGUISHER?? WAS HE GOING TO BEAT THE PIG UP TO DEATH WITH IT????? I DON'T THINK SO, YOU PATHETIC MORONS!!"

Well, its highly unlikely he was asking the policeman to check it was still under garuntee.

Next time you see a similar sized metal fire extinguisher, try picking it up and dropping it on your foot (not the silly little ones you can keep in your car). Please reply to this group with your findings. At a later date, we can arrange to have it thrown at your head, to judge the effect of impact from different heights. I would imagine we could have some graphically conclusive evidence after three of four impacts.

"EVEN IF HE HAD THROWN IT INTO THE JEEP, THAT DOESN'T GIVE THE PIG THE RIGHT TO KILL HIM!!!!!!"

The actions taken by the policeman were perfectly justified bearing in mind the threat posed. Please conduct the experiments mentioned above before declaring that a fire extinguisher (which are made of strenghtened steel to contain high-pressure gases) poses no threat to life.

"HIS LIFE WAS NOT THREATENED BY THE STUPID EXTINGUISHER, THAT'S SUCH BULLSHIT!!"

Once again, please arrange to have a similar metal weight thrown at you before you pass judgement. Sigh.

"HE DIDN'T HAVE TO SHOOT HIM IN THE HEAD! OF COURSE HE COULD HAVE AIMED TO INJURE, NOT KILL!"

Why should he? Hes life was in danger, and he made sure the Retard took a bullet rather than be smashed by a heavy metal weight.

"HE COULD HAVE EVEN SHOT SOME ROUNDS INTO THE AIR AND EVERYONE WOULD HAVE RAN AWAY. HE HAD A VARIETY OF OPTIONS, BUT HE CHOSE TO BE A COLD-BLOODED MURDERER BECAUSE HE KNEW HE COULD GET AWAY WITH IT ANYWAY!!"

Yeah right, a guy is advancing on you to try to break your bones, and you want the policeman to make a split second decision to give the guy a second chance to realise hes in the wrong. Dear god, at least think before you post.

The fulminations of the reactionaries on this site are amusing. It simply comes down to the fact that there are two sides to the "barricade". Which side are you on? Regardless of what I think about this dead comrades tactics, I honor his courage. Yes, it will take violence, but violence carefully prepared and to our advantage. Can the anarchists do this? Maybe not, if so they must concede to the ones who can.

Ah but you who philosophy disgrace,
and criticize all fears
Bury the rag deep in your face,
for now is the time for your tears.

To all philosophers and criticisers: who are you, the cop in panic or the lyncher caught by the bullit?
Bla-bla politics over the dead? Bullshit like that?
Images speak quite clearly
I don't agree with indiscriminated beatings by the police, but when you go lynching you go to war; blame on anyone who speaks over the dead to support his fucking political views.

"You said it yourself David: The Police are fallible human beings. They did the wrong thing. They're not above the law, they're not above morality or responsibility."

The Police are of course fallible. Just like this Carlo Retard making the misjudgement of attempting to maim or murder a person who had the wherewithal to stop him, e.g. by hitting him first with sufficient force to remove the threat to the policemans life.

"And the Jeep HAD driven into the lines of protesters. Your point that they wouldn't do something like that in the glare of the global media is over negated by events such as footage of Police officers beating the CAMERA CREWS of the global media."

Proof of the jeep 'driving repeatedly into the crowd'? And not by some 'independent news site' like this miguided propaganda mouthpiece.

"Anyone who watched any number of news reports would have seen it. Just look at more footage of the Police punching, kicking and beating with batons single protesters while curled up on the floor, watch them chase after fleeing protesters and beating them as they RUN AWAY. It's retaliation and revenge, not policing."

If I was on the receiving end of bottles, stones, and fire bombs, Id give you a good kicking whenever I had the chance. These Retards have to learn that they cannot act with impugnity - If you start violence you will have it returned to you.

"The Police commit disgusting acts whether the media is present or not. Police are Police, they are there to do a job, when they fuck up and shoot someone, they are doing their job badly, yesterday they fucked up."

1) You recognise that the police were doing their job 2)Yesterday they acted in self defence against Retards. Do you think the Carlos Retard would have died if he had been peacefully protesting?


"Okay, after seeing more photos i have seen that there was a wall in front of the jeep, but reversing would have been a completely viable option."

No, because they would have had to reverse into the mob of people trying to cause them bodily harm. And then you would be ranting about police brutality and dangerous driving. Of course, if, as, you claim, they enjoyed driving repeatedly into the crowd, WHY DIDNT THEY JUST DO IT AGAIN? Fool.

"If you reverse in a motor vehicle people move out of the way, they don't stand still."

So all this 'driving into the crowd' nonsense would have had no effect, as people would automatically get out of the way? Whatever course of action the police take, they will be criticised. You idiots see them as facelss inhuman robots that you can conveniently blame for all your mistakes. Until your house is burgled, your car stolen, or your sister raped, and then you demand they protect you. Morons.

"If you shoot at someone from point blank range they can't dodge."

Wow! Id never thought of that! In future, all police forces of the world shall be ordered to only fire at attacking rioters from a distance that gives them a sporting chance. At the speed of a bullet, and human reaction times, that should be about quarter of a mile. In return, all rioters will be required to signal their intent to commit grevious bodily harm / attempted murder from at least that distance, in order that 'the rules of rioting' can be obeyed. Thats going to *really* cut down on the use of heavy metal fire extinguishers as weapons. Youd be exhausted trying to carry one that far. You could, however, organise 'relay teams' to make it more fun.

Additionally, all rioters will also be given access to Matrix style special effects to enable them to avoid the natural consequences of their violent behaviour.


"You don't need to do complex equations to understand that if someone has a very heavy object and wishes to throw it, it's not going very far."

Thats probably why he walked up to the jeep.

"Yeah, it IS nice to be sitting at home pontificating about correct Police practice. And it's nice to know that there is such thing as a warning shot, or the shout to "halt!" etc."

I would have thought having a gun pointed at you is sufficient warning to stop (and you actually agree with this statement in your next sentence). Obviously the Retard is so used to being able to use violence while believing the police wont respond, he didnt take the gun pointing at him too seriously. Thankfully, he wont make that mistake twice.


"When someone is pointing a gun at your face you're gonna stop what you're doing, why didn't the Police officer do this?"

Doh! Youve just defated yourself! Check out the pictures - thats exactly what happened. The Retard just tried to call the policemans bluff, and lost. Russian roulette, I think its called. If I was his insurance company, I wouldnt pay out - he effectively comitted suicide.


"Oh, i suppose you're going to say that it was a split second decision, it was a terrifying situation, it was too hard to decide to sya "Stop!" The officer acted on impulse."

You put forward a very convincing arguement on this point, and Im glad to see youre beginning to see sense. 1) We can see the warning of pointing a gun at the Retard. 2) We do not yet know that no command to halt was given 3) WHY THE FUCK DO YOU NEED TO BE TOLD TO HALT WHEN YOU ARE TRYING TO BREAK SOMEONES BACK WITH A BIG PIECE OF METAL, DICKHEAD!!!


"The split second decision, the impulse, the terrifyied reaction was to KILL. There were other options, the officer didn't take them. He probably does have grounds for diminished responsibility, but what ghe did was wrong."

The only other option was to take the hit from the heavy metal object, and pray you were still in a position to defend yourself despite the injuries caused, and that the Retards would then just walk away and leave you alone. Highly unlikely, and I doubt if in a similar position you would reacted any differently. If you really were that stupid, youd be dead by now. Just like the Carlos Retard.

"Yes, it will take violence, but violence carefully prepared and to our advantage."

If you believe that is the way forward, youve already lost.

David Leahy,

Did you ever consider that perhaps some of the people posting to this site, might have actually conducted such a test as you are proposing? From the quality of their comments and their selective vision, it certainly seems that they have been beaten repeatedly about the head by blunt heavy objects. The twit got what he deserved, and may it be a lesson to all those others that go about throwing themselves at police, using sticks, metal rods, molotov cocktails and other weapons and then have the gall to label those police forces fascists and nazis because they use force to quell their destructive tendencies.

Hope you keep posting, despite the fact that the morons who throw around comments about economic systems they don't understand will continue to choose to ignore the truth of the facts presented to them and persist in living in the pat little world their ignorance has created for them.

E' ora di finirla non ne posso più di vivere in uno stato dove chi ha la divisa può uccidere a norma di legge. Basta! La colpa di tutto questo é di chi il potere lo da a queste persone, cioé dello stato stesso. E' ora di finirla siamo sudditi senza potere così... chi ha ucciso non ha un nome e presto sarà a piede libero. Se é questo che volete... ANARCHIA PACIFISTA

jesus!!it because of the assholes in the us who support bush and this bullshit charade. the constitution starts with..."we the people". keep thinking you still live in a free world.by the way,thanks assholes for voting for bush.my condolences to the family.all i can say was that carlo still had the flame of freedom burning in his heart,contrary to the ignorant american asses who think this cant happen in the u.s.your fight will not be forgotten and your death shall not breed fear but inspiration to those who still wake up every morning wanting to make a change.fuck the cops!!they are the peoples enemy.their sole purpose is to protect capitalism and the money makers,not the people!!

xxx-edge

What a series of rants we've had by David Leahy and people with creative names like "Blunt objects," "Sick and tired" and "Anti-lefty." There is a lot that I could say in condemnation of the police actions in this case but regardless of anything I or anyone could ever possibly say, it would just be met with snide comments like "[o]h for Gods [sic] sake grow up," "miguided [sic] propaganda mouthpiece," "[m]ore drivel," "[s]igh," "[p]athetic," "[a]bsolute rubbish," "[f]antasy" or "Im [sic] running out of words to describe your stupidity."

How could one possibly respond to this? Let's try something that Mr. Leahy has not: let's start from the position that the other side is correct. From his position, "[t]he actions taken by the policeman were perfectly justified." Remember, we are taking this as true. What we then might look into is his attitude towards summarily executing such "retard[s]" as Carlo Guiliani. When we do so, it becomes difficult to rally around a person who views such acts, not as unfortunate realities required to potect our society from the irrational, but rather as just deserts.

I can't support the callous comments of the other supporters of the killing in this case either. (Other posts for other pictures on IMC said "I look at the dead dumbass and I just have to laugh, and laugh and laugh and laugh" and "Fuck the poor they are all whores any ways [sic].") It's interesting how vicious the comments are from this group. Also interesting is their comfort with the term "retards," not one person has thought to call them on that. I guess derogatory comments against the developmentally challenged are fair game. Again, the tone is quite nasty. (I suspect that for saying this, I might receive a post calling me a 'pussy' or some such comment.)

Underneath the comments, one gets the feeling that Mr. Leahy and the others are hungry for protester blood. All talk of a warning shot, a body shot or no shot are conveniently dismissed. To follow their arguement, we must believe that the fire extinguisher was going to go in perfectly through the rather small rear window to strike the officer, and then be retrieved by Carlo to use it again and again in a similar pattern until the officer was dead. All this while the riot policemen down the street watched. I am still trying to believe this remember. I must believe it or I am succumbing to "fantasy." 'Believe it or you are wrong' is not a very logical arguement but we must try it seems for we are not allowed to disagree with the system as Carlo did.

Reading all the posts, it seems that Leahy's real beef lies with the idea of disagreeing with the status quo and not really on this one particular incident. Leahy himself said, "Yeah! Right On! Smash Capitalism! And replace it with ... erm... errr... well... you know .... well anyway smash it! Smash it all! Yeah!" clearly showing his disapproval for the protesters. He has also chosen to adopt the position that protesters have no idea what's going on and offer no solutions. When a solution is pointed out, such as Participatory Economics, his convenient response is "[a]bsolutely hilarious!" To be fair, I think he was saying that it would be impossible for a young man understand an alternative economic model and at the same time get angry enough to throw something at a policeman at the same time. That line of reasoning is unnecessary of comment.

We can also discount the possibility that Mr. Leahy is a speed reader and has actually read the Parecon site ( http://www.parecon.org ). Had he done so, he would not have used the term "utopian" to describe it. In fact, if he has any concrete critisms (ie. saying something more than "hilarious"), I and the people at the Parecon site would love to hear them. Being skeptical, I have been trying to shoot it down or find a flaw with it for several months, without success. Any flaw he can find would be of great interest to the creators of Parecon and to myself.

Try as I might, I just can't seem to come around to Mr. Leahy's reasoning. He could have said that the protesters ought not to trash their own city, local shops and private vehicles to voice their anger. However, what we got instead was barely contained glee over the death of someone who doesn't share his views. Apparently, his PR skills are no better than those of the protesters he condemns.

Se aveste 20 anni, circondati da 15 persone armate di spranghe e altri oggetti contundenti, chiusi in un'auto ferma e senza possibilità di scappare, feriti alla testa ed ad una gamba e una pistola in mano? Anarchici, fascisti, buonisti, pacifisti, cattolici, verdi, ecc. chiunque avrebbe sparato, avrebbe sparato per salvarsi la pelle! Non penso proprio che in occasione del genere qualcuno possa pensare a ragioni politiche o ideologiche.
Quel ragazzo ha dovuto scegliere tra la sua vita e quella di un altro, ha scelto e adesso ne pagherà le conseguenze.
E' triste pensare che ancora oggi qualunque movimento per avere un certo seguito aspiri ad un martire. Sì perchè Giuliani adesso è un martire per parte dell'opinione pubblica, per altri, invece, era solo un teppista. Io penso che ogniuno abbia le sue ragioni per vivere e comportarsi in un certo modo. Manifestare le proprie idee in un modo attivo come faceva lui aveva dei rischi e lui lo sapeva e pur sapendolo ha accettato il rischio. E' un intento nobile che, a parer mio, và rispettato senza strumentalizzazioni.

Sugerir que los carabinieri actuaron en defensa propia, que no les quedaba otra alternativa, puesto que estaban siendo fuertemente atacados por los manifestantes (que es lo ciertamente muestran las otras fotos de la secuencia), es de alma fascista. Este discurso que exige "ley y orden" es tan peligroso como las fuerzas del orden.

No comment from our self-righteous, hate-filled right wing? Seeing as how the young, inexperienced policeman has been arrested and charged with murder (according to Yahoo news) and the jeep driver might be charged as well, I guess David Leahy and crew have rushed off to Italy to offer legal services.

QUIENES SON LOS IDIOTAS QUE DEFIENDEN LA ACCION DE LOS CERDOS?? ERES RETARDADO O ESTUPIDO ??
QUE HIBA A HACER EL PROTESTANTE CON ESE EXTINGUIDOR??
HIBA A MATAR AL CERDO Y MORIR CON EL???? YO NO LO CREO, PATETICO MORROñOSO!! AUN SI LO HUBIERA TIRADO ADENTRO DEL JEEP, ESO NO DABA DERECHO AL CERDO DE MATARLO!!!!!
SU VIDA NO ESTABA AMENAZADA POR EL EXTINGUIDOR, EL NO TENIA POR QUE DISPARARLE EN LA CABEZA!

EL PUDO DISPARAR AL AIRE Y TODO MUNDO HUBIERA CORRIDO, TUBO MUCHAS OPCIONES! PERO EL ELIGIO MATARLO A SANGRE FRIA. pOR QUE A EL NO LE IMPORTO

la polizia,i carabinieri,la finanza hanno caricato pestato ferito e tutto questo dopo aver ucciso un ragazzo di 23 anni che protestava contro la violenza con la violenza!!!!!!!!io mi chiedo cosa avrebbero fatto se il morto fosse stato un fottutissssssimo sbirro di merda probabilmente avremmo assistito ad una strage come rappresaglia,tutto questo non fa altro che aumentare il mio ODIO verso ogni regime,perche il governo del berlusca non è altro che il nipote di quel regime tanto ODIATO e COMBATTUTO dai nostri nonni e padri!!!!!!!!! FUCK THE SISTEM EVERY TIME EVERY WHERE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! punk e anarchici sempre

Esprimo il massimo cordoglio ai familiari ed ai compagni di carlo.

La forza di quei porci e solo nelle pallottole,....esistono tante altre armi, esistono tanti posti e tanti momenti.

No words can describe how you are feeling at this moment, So I simply say that
my most sincere condolences go out to you all.

I never knew Carlo but I would have marched by his side if I could have
afforded the plane trip from Australia.

I don't know what he was like but he could have been me or my friend or family,
so he might as well be.

So few people understand why our words need to be said that it has become a
fight just to say them.

I am so sorry.
Kristen from Melbourne Australia

Eat, if there is something to eat!
Drink, if there is something to drink!
Fuck, if there is something to...
And Kill, if...
I hate you...

...appena ho visto queste immagini in televisione non ho potuto fare a meno di provare una profonda commozione per il compagno carlo ucciso barbaramente e dopo pochi istanti sono stata travolta da una folle rabbia e allo stesso tempo da una sensazione d'impotenza per non essere lì a vendicare questo atroce delitto, si perchè è di un vero e proprio assassinio che stiamo parlando! Vorrei dire a tutti quelli che ritengono che l'accaduto sia dovuto a leggittima difesa da parte del carabiniere che non è possibile paragonare minimamente un estintore a un'arma da fuoco e che mai e poi mai potrei giustificare una persona che, anche per paura spari alla testa di un altro giovane portandogli via qualcosa di incommensurabile che è la vita! Assassini!
Se fini ha dichiarato che la leggittima difesa esiste nel nostro paese ed è un diritto di tutti, allora io gli rispondo che se dovessi trovarmi di fronte a un poliziotto che sta per colpirmi con un manganello, non dovrei farmi alcun problema a sparargli...in fondo è leggittima difesa!!!
Bastardi! Un uomo, un compagno è stato ucciso, ed io mai e poi mai dimenticherò!
ilaria

Carlo non sarai dimenticato, la pagheranno. Basta con la giustizia sommaria di questo stato fascista. BRLUSCONI,SCAJOLA E TUTTI VOI ALTRI:VAFFANCULOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!Non riuscirete a fermare la rabbia e il dolore che proviamo.
Il movimento é solo all'inizio, noi non ci arrenderemo

"No comment from our self-righteous, hate-filled right wing? Seeing as how the young, inexperienced policeman has been arrested and charged with murder (according to Yahoo news) and the jeep driver might be charged as well, I guess David Leahy and crew have rushed off to Italy to offer legal services."

Actually Ive been having a lovely dinner with some good friends of mine. The sirloin was delicious. And I got a gorgeous babes mobile number... Im certainly not filled with hate at the moment. Im more filled with beaujolias..

Anyway, back to todays lesson: 'Comprehension for Retards'

1) Yahoo news collects feeds from different news agencies. These are referenced below.

2) -No charges- have been brought against the policeman. An investigation has been announced (refer to section A and the later stories in sections B and C, both below); in the UK this is required by law whenever a firearm is discharged, and it seems to be the same in Italy. No mention of murder, no mention of the driver, no mention of a trial.

3) It appears that Carlo the Retard was an unemployed squatter with criminal convictions, including firearms related offences.

4) Even the headquarters of this 'peaceful protest' seem to have been hiding their fair share of weaponry (refer to section B).

Emphasis (**) is obviously mine.

A) Reuters - Saturday July 21 6:11 AM ET
'Manslaughter Probe of Policeman in G8 Shooting'

"Judicial sources said prosecutors had begun proceedings that **could** lead to manslaughter charges against the paramilitary officer who fired the shots that killed Giuliani. The policemen, who has not been named, was being treated in a Genoa hospital.

`He is to be placed under investigation on suspicion of manslaughter, **as is usual in such cases**,'' a source said.

He said the investigation would also, however, study **whether the policeman had acted in legitimate self defense**."

In a later article:

B) From Associated Press, Saturday July 21 8:27 PM ET
'Summit Protests Rage for Second Day'

"Meanwhile, Italian authorities said they were **contemplating** manslaughter charges against a 20-year-old paramilitary officer in connection with the shooting of a 23-year-old protester a day earlier - though **officials said he apparently acted in self-defense**. The policeman was hospitalized for shock."

And still later:

B) Reuters - Saturday July 21 10:08 PM ET
'G8 Protest Activists Detained in Police Raid'

"Italian prosecutors announced they had opened an **investigation** into the paramilitary policeman involved in the fatal shooting of Carlo Giuliani, 23, who attacked a Carabinieri jeep with other protesters during Friday's unrest.

The proceedings will determine **whether** murder or manslaughter charges should be brought, or **whether** the officer was acting in self-defense.

A Genoa police spokeswoman said **Giuliani, who was unemployed and homeless, had a police record and faced a series of pending charges including illegal arms possession**."


C) From Associated Press, Sunday July 22 8:48 AM ET
'Police Raid Summit Foes' Headquarters'

"All those arrested in the raid were charged with possession of firebombs and with criminal association in order to commit vandalism, police said."

"Police seized two sledgehammers, 12 jackknives, one pickax, a few short-bladed knives, several long pieces of jagged wood, two bottles for making firebombs, as well as black woolen hoods, a wig, helmets and about a dozen gas masks, displaying them to reporters at police headquarters."


I really cant keep on explaining things to you people - dont you have a responsible adult around to help you out?

...si può pensarla in molti modi e si puo facilmente strumentalizzare: non è destra nè sinistra, nè bianchi o neri o rossi, non fascisti o anarchici...:è un ragazzo morto, è un'altro ragazzo che spara, per paura credo, non so,come si può dire: potrebbe essere che fossimo qui a commentare la morte di un pulotto, e direi le stesse cose: che senso ha tirare il porfido e bruciare i cassonetti in nome di quale giustizia??? e che senso ha manganellare ragazzi e tirare lacrimogeni per difendere quale linea rossa o gialla o che ne so: io penso si possa cambiare le cose ragazzi, ma non so se così: sono le nostre abitudini che devono cambiare, le nostre idee, i nostri modi di esserci, e dobbiamo essere tutti, e far vedere a quei potenti e ricconi del cazzo che non ci va bene e che cambiare dal basso si può, si deve....

clearly David Leahy is a police officer... think about it...
there was tons of infiltrators in Ghotenburg and Barcelona so why not on this site...
David talks about responsibility and other assorted adult boring babble... responsibility has gotten us nowhere so lets start acting with passion instead.
Dismantle the boring moral etichs of the bourgieose aimed at keeping us content with the present culture and strike a blow at all the sentimental and christian bollocks that makes us bow down to bosses, politicans, gods and cops like David.
THe time has come to fight back against a structural violence aimed a the working people every day, and don't let a brick stop you from seeing that.
Love
D.

Reactionary buttfucks please fuck off.

It doesn't matter who Guiliani was, how intelligent he was, or even what his motives were. There was NO excuse for shooting him twice in the face and running gover him-twice!. This is out and out terrorism, and there are much clearer cases in genoa of terrorism, unprovoked beatings, and even torture(!) by police, who are ANYTHING BUT concerned with public order and the safety of all.. Why should ANYONE be CELEBRATING Guiliani's brutal MURDERr?! REgardless about whether he "thought" about the extent of police terror, and the willingness of violent state power to shoot people like him in the face? REgardless of what he was about to throw at a fucking jeep that was there only to terrorize people! The police invaded protestor HQs, beat passive people to bloody pulps, arrested people for no reason, used tear gas to injure people whose only crime was to dissent from the prevailing political economyin an open way.

The state clearly infiltrated groups, and manipulated the violent protestors to their advantage.

David Leahy, this nazi mosquito, who you guys shouldn't waste so much time on, who likes to brag about eating animals and talks about getting a "babe's mobile number" - you're point here is to irritate smart people very concerned to understand the world and improve it. The upshot of your adolescent fascist comments is that no other world is possible, that things really aren't that bad, are that they are unavoidable, that power is it's own justification, that it should be as unnaccountable and concentrated as possible. You are an apologist for illegitimate power and the ifliction of pain. We will bury your idiot fascism, your "there is no alternative" mission.

Because it will be pretty obvious who was right later on, you will irrelevant, like provocateur apologists for slavery and colonialism. We all know this and that's why your being here is very, very futile.

yes smash capitalism, replace it with tendencies that give concern to inequality, suffering, and the destruction of the planet, and people having no say in their fate.. Should this be so goddamn controversial or radical? Well it is,

arriba los rojos!

couldn't help but point out that this guy "David Leahy" seems to find this all amusing. He has all ready proven himself to be full of pompous, windbag, run of the mill opinions that seem to be based on bullshit. Why is anyone giving him the respect of response?? Remember when your mom would tell you to just ignore your little brother because he was just trying to get your goat and if you didn't get so worked up he would get bored and quit bugging you? I have a feeling this guy is the same way...
As far as the comment on these photos, this is a horrible thing that needn't have happened. Both the victim and the cop were 20 years old, sometimes youth don't see consequenses in the same way as older people, Though I believe in the RIGHT to protest and that this young man was NOT attempting murder on a truck full of cops, the REALITY is that it is dangerous to wield a weapon at a truck full of cops. Did he think he could get away with defiance of the police because no one had yet been killed? If the cops don't use their weapons some of the time why do they carry them??NEVER trust a cop to NOT SHOOT YOU, no matter what the reason.
I don't know the answer and I am grateful for that boy and all the other protesters who are risking their lives.

"David Leahy, this nazi mosquito, who you guys shouldn't waste so much time on, who likes to brag about eating animals and talks about getting a "babe's mobile number" - you're point here is to irritate smart people very concerned to understand the world and improve it."

Well I think ive irratated quite a few people here, but Ive yet to encounter one that deserves the accolade of 'smart'. I would say the one common factor uniting the Retards spouting this 'smash capitalism' rubbish is that they are just not as successful as they feel they should be in life. So someone, preferably an imaginary 'New World Order' and a demonised police, have to shoulder the burden of your disappointments. I mean, It cant be your fault, can it?

"The upshot of your adolescent fascist comments is that no other world is possible, that things really aren't that bad, are that they are unavoidable, that power is it's own justification, that it should be as unnaccountable and concentrated as possible."

Wow, you can read all that into comments made simply to correct Retards delusional rantings? I dont suppose you know what the Lottery numbers will be next week... and I bet if your numbers came up youd soon forget this anarchist nonsense.

"You are an apologist for illegitimate power and the ifliction of pain. We will bury your idiot fascism, your "there is no alternative" mission."

Well, I tried really hard to find any justification for this, but no, I couldnt find any. I havent apologised for anybody, especially not myself. I am reponsible for myself, and myself alone. I realise responsibility is an unpopular concept around here, but then, thats your choice. Thats probably why you arent as successful in life as you feel you have a right to be.

I dont really think 'idiot fascism' 'belongs' to anyone - you seem to have acquired quite a bit of it yourself.

"couldn't help but point out that this guy "David Leahy" seems to find this all amusing."

Actually, I find it deeply worrying that so many can be so misguided.

"He has all ready proven himself to be full of pompous, windbag, run of the mill opinions that seem to be based on bullshit."

"Why is anyone giving him the respect of response??"

Why did you?

"Though I believe in the RIGHT to protest and that this young man was NOT attempting murder on a truck full of cops, the REALITY is that it is dangerous to wield a weapon at a truck full of cops."

Partly correct - the right to protest I think everyone will agree on. The danger of attacking a cornered, armed man is obvious. I think we will just have to agree to disagree that attempting to crush a man with a large metal object is anything other than attempted murder.

"Did he think he could get away with defiance of the police because no one had yet been killed? If the cops don't use their weapons some of the time why do they carry them??"

Beacuse there are an awful lot of dangerous, unpredictable people out there, from bank robbers to drunks on a saturday night. There are murders comitted every day, and the police are expected to be able to handle any sutuation that arises. It is not fair to expect them to face lethal danger on OUR BEHALF, without the means to defend themselves. The attempted murder of a policeman by Carlo, a vagrant with a criminal record and hstory of firearms offences, kind of supports the case for the police carrying arms.

"I don't know the answer and I am grateful for that boy and all the other protesters who are risking their lives."

They is no need for them to risk their lives. Its stupid that they do. Form a coherent political movement and try to get the voting public on your side, dont try to force a change by intimidation and violence. Even the IRA seem to have realised that violence doesnt work.

NO JUSTICE, NO PEACE.

ITALIAN COPS = FASCIST, ITALY DIDENT CHANGE!
FUCK OFF YOUR GOVERMANT...
ACAB

The criminal, terrorist elite must be defeated by any means.

Today we cry for Carlo and all our comrades victim for the
worldwide capitalist forces terror, tomorrow we´ll fight
back even harder.

Hasta la victoria siempre!!!

Hmm cop kills protester, cop will probably walk away with two weeks paid suspension, but what would happen if the protestor killed a cop I guess we'll just have to find out now won't we, cant wait for the next meeting.

Il carabiniere ha detto che non ha mirato: allora perche` tiene il pollice alto sull'impugnatura!?

"Hmm cop kills protester, cop will probably walk away with two weeks paid suspension, but what would happen if the protestor killed a cop I guess we'll just have to find out now won't we, cant wait for the next meeting."

There really isnt a brain cell shared between you lot, is there?

Hmm, unemployed vagrant with criminal record blames 'SOMEONE ELSE' for his problems. Finds solace with a group of like minded failures who decide that violence is the only way to express themselves. The Retard is stupid enough to try to kill an armed man. The armed man shoots him rather than be seriously injured or killed. And then the mob see the Retard as a martyr, and the policeman who defended himself as a sub-human Nazi, and try to outdo themselves with stories of the 'glory' of Carlo, and the depth of their personal loss. Its as nauseating as the false grief after the Princess of Wales and Dodi Fayed died.

If the policeman hadnt opened fire, and been incapacitated by the heavy metal object, what might of happened? There would be lots of posts on this board by Retards gleefully celebrating the death of the policeman.

All this rhetoric from arm chair 'activists', all the chest beating from the comfort of own homes, while people get hurt is sickening.

Learn to put forward a proper arguement, or just fuck off and leave the rest of us to get on with our lives.

Violence defeats everybody.

I hate to be the one to break this to everyone but violence does work. True, it's not the most ideal method, but sometimes it's the only option. Violence helped win American independance, smash the facists in Italy, smash the Nazis in Germany, gained international recognition of the Zapatistas, etc. Violence can work, but quite frankly, the state is a hell of a lot better armed, prepared, etc. I personally prefer VANDALISM instead. Hurting the capitalists wallet and property will affect them more than the injuries and deaths of human beings. Besides, why adopt the prefered methods of the capitalists? Just some food for thought....


Oh, and to all those people who seem to think that this young man DESERVED to die, shame on you. He is someone's son, he has a mother and father, family and friends. For all those people who are applauding his death, I guess you must think that you are God or that human life doesn't have much value. Either way, I pity you...Killing someone for rioting or disorderly conduct is far too extreme, even killing someone for assault and battery is too extreme. 'Sides, I always thought that Italy was against the death penalty....

Mr. S.En

Todays star Retard is 'Mr. S.En', awarded for this spectaculalry idiotic reasoning:

"Oh, and to all those people who seem to think that this young man DESERVED to die, shame on you. He is someone's son, he has a mother and father, family and friends."

Unlike, I take it, the 20 year old policeman he was trying to crush with the heavy metal object. I understand that the policeman he tried to kill had to be hospitalised due to shock. Rioting to you must be a bit like a computer game - you throw rocks and firebombs at some faceless enemy and you think its a valid expression of your disjointed philosophy. You dont see the fear and hurt you are causing other humans. And when they react, you are simply *outraged* that they dont just take your violence meekly.

As an aside, from his own fathers comments, Carlo the Retard had actually distanced himself from his own family.

"For all those people who are applauding his death, I guess you must think that you are God or that human life doesn't have much value."

Human life has considerable value. You have inadvertantly raised a very important point we really must investigate -why did Carlo the Retard value human life so poorly? Why did he try to crush a 20 year old countryman with a heavy metal weight? It really does point to some deep rooted psychological disorder. How prevalant is this problem amongst the 'movement'?

And I have to admit, I do find it amusing that you have to have 'organisers' for an 'anarchist' protest. Kind of backs up an earlier posters suggestion that its more a case of 'we dont like the oppresive ruling class, so well replace it with our own'


"Either way, I pity you...Killing someone for rioting or disorderly conduct is far too extreme, even killing someone for assault and battery is too extreme."

Carlo the Retard did not die beacuse of rioting. He died beacuse of his foolish attempt to seriously injure or kill and armed police officer. Natural justice would be an apt description, and poetic justice wouldnt be too wrong either.

Mr. Leahy, for a pacifist you seem very fond of verbal violence. Abuse, insults, ad hominem attacks. Interesting. Most pacifists I know are sensitive to all manifestations of "violence". And Mr. Leahy, no one has lost anything yet. Barring eco-cide or thermonuclear destruction. These battles will continue, as they always have, throughout history. Violence will be a part of them. Excluding yourself and the angelic hosts.

ok, io condanno il gesto in se stesso...non si può sparare ad una persona solo perchè sta tirando un estintore contro una jeap...però pensateci un attimo:prima di tutto non è un poverino perchè stava assalendo una jeap dei carabinieri in modo violento e se avesse potuto avrebbe ammazzato lui qualcuno...secondo poi uno che va girando con un passamontagna tirando estintori insieme ad un gruppo che aveva sfondato la jeap con un'asse di legno non è propriamente quello che si chiama un contestatre tranquillo...poi pensate a quel ragazzotto ventenne che magari avrà anche mirato altrove, o manco avrà mirato, e che nel panico generale e nella confusione ha sparato un colpo per fermare uno che stava per tirargli un estintore...e poi i media si permettono pure di dire "il martire" che "forse" stava per tirare un estintore...ma io dico...in fondo sempre un autonomo casinaro era, e la sentenza è stata di leggittima difesa...tra l'altro se un manifestante viene accerchiato dalle forze dell'ordine succede (anche se molte volte la polizia ha torto) perchè qualcuno ha infranto qualche regola...e poi le manifestazioni dovrebbero essere fatte per contestare una certa cosa, non per assalire camionette dei carabinieri...l'accaduto è stato una disgrazia, ma non si può dire che in un certo modo il tizio non se la sia cercata!

manifestare si, ma pacificamente!!
NO alla globalizzazione, NO al G8

Please stop boring us with your absurde ideas. You tell that the young Carlo was a boy with past violence actions an this, in your delirant vision, was a good reason to shot him ! If you was in square and not at home having a dinner with your friend i think that you can say less stupid word. You apologize that anyone in the same situation will do the same, but this is false. Hundred of pacifist demonstrant was surrounded from dozen of policem hitting them with head-kick and mace, and they not shot them ! I suppose that the pain is similar in everyone. The difference is that a policeman in bad situation can be helped with a charge of his friend, the demonstrant not have the same way of flee.
I think that you have to turn on your brain before say ...

meanwhile... the air gets warmer, the sea gets higher, extinctions increase, forests disappear, rivers die, cities expand, traffic increases etc.
everything dies....
or changes.

Mr Leahy

I'm only posting this one, so there is little point in you applying your oh so worldwise vitriol (neatly summarizing my comments with little stars, no doubt) to what I have to say (though this being a free board, I can't stop you).

Mr Leahy, you fail to make me sick, you stop short even of making me angry. You, and your ilk, just bring to bear a feeling of bone crushing numbness and weariness whenenever I hear what you have to say, and through it am forced to infer what you think.

I am assuming from your command of English and from your surname that you hail from an Anglophone country. It matters little which, as most display a common thread in their recent history. How, exactly do you think you have gained the luxury of sitting at your $1,000 dollar plus computer keyboard being able to say exactly what you feel, in a climate at least at face value largely free from overt oppression? How do you think you have been afforded that dubious right to vote? Where do you think the increasingly tenuous labour rights you enjoy and which keep you from being summarily dismissed came from? Where do you think your 'rights' came from?

The answer is that your ancestors, and mine, fought and died at the hands of the forces of the state to eke out, slowly and painfully, the rights that we enjoy now. The state does not give with a free hand - through history it has been forced to give through fear of what may happen to it should it not concede. Throughout history, people have been throwing their equivalents of fire extinguishers at pigs, and throughout history, those fighting on the side of the people have come out worse in terms of injuries, and fatalities. But, they have won.

What the fallen of Genoa was fighting for was not only the dream of the future but also the legacy of the past, a debt we all owe - you included - to the blood of our grandfathers' grandfathers that was spilled to give us the rights that are now being sold by state and corporation for the price of a shopping centre. You betray all that you come from for failing to understand where you come from. Listen hard to your DVDs and think hard, because the storm is rising again.

No Pasaran

FATE VEDERE TUTTA LA VERITA... COEM AL SOLITO SIETE DEI GRANDI MANIPOLATORI....... UN RICORDO AGLI ITALIANI UCCISE NELLE FOIBE A FIUME!!!!! UCCISI DAI COMUNISTIIIIIIII

Chiaro che una persona in una camionetta , accerchiato da decine, se non centinaia di persone inferocite, attaccato da una persona col viso coperto con un "piccolo" estintore di pochi chili di peso ( in acciaio ), dovrebbe lasciarsi colpire ( magari anche in modo grave ) perche' tanto ha un misero stipendio ( in rapporto a quello che fa ). Ha fatto bene! Si e' DIFESO. E non vigliaccamente con un passamontagna in volto. Avrei preferito che non morisse nessuno, ma non si possono dare le colpe senza valutare le situazioni. Siete cosi' "fuori" che non ammettete nemmeno di poter essere in torto! E questo "commento" lo cestinerete come tutti gli altri. Anche questa e' disinformazione. Siete come quelli che combattete. Solo che non lo capite! Protettori del mondo!

CONTRO LA FAME DEL MONDO - VENITE A GENOVA A MANGIARE GRATIS! ORGANIZZATA L'OLIMPIADE DI IPOCRISIA! I POPOLI DEL TERZO MONDO RINGRAZIANO QUELLO SI SEATTLE PER L'AIUTO DATO LORO. DA QUESTE MANIFESTAZIONI TRARRANNO ENORMI BENEFICI!

------------i p o c r i t i---------------

(ANSA) - GENOVA, 20 LUG - Gli anarchici sono giunti in piazza Giusti, nel quartiere di Marassi, dove hanno sfondato e saccheggiato un supermercato Dì per Dì e devastato un distributore di benzina.
Gli anarchici sono usciti dal supermarket con in mano bottiglie di bibite, di vino e di superalcolici, oltre che con gelati e dolci. Terminato il saccheggio, fatto al ritmo dei tamburi neri di un gruppo musicale con in testa creste di drago, il corteo ha attraversato il ponte di Sant' Agata sul torrente Bisagno, continuando a dirigersi verso la periferia.(ANSA).

E dopo più di trent'anni, la polizia e tutte le altre teste di cazzo, vogliono farci credere che un altro Pinelli è caduto incidentalmente da una finestra?
questa volta no! ci sono fin troppe immagini a testimoniare la vostra fottutissima repressione. Carlo Giuliani in mano aveva un estintore, è vero, ma chi può credere che avrebbe potuto ammazzare uno sbirro? uno sbirro della sua stessa età! uno dei tanti, tantissimi che ripiegano su un lavoro di merda come quello di sbirro perchè, per sopravvivere, è meglio sporcarsi le mani di sangue piuttosto che di terra!

"...cadesti a terra senza un lamento, e ti accorgesti in un solo momento che la tua vita finiva quel giorno e non ci sarebbe stato ritorno..."

CARLO VIVE!

POLIZIA ASSASSINA!

Siete diventati PATETICI, IGNORANTI e VIOLENTI.

Vi nutrite di IDEOLOGIE RICICLATE e vi FOSSILIZZATE sulle vostre opinioni sicuri di avere la VERITA' IN TASCA.

In realta' avete solo il CERVELLO IN LETARGO, e non avete piu' voglia di RAGIONARE. Avete solo voglia di MENARE LE MANI e DIFENDERE CHI LO FA.

Un COGLIONE CON UN ESTINTORE IN MANO e' INDISTINGUIBILE da un TAZZARRO COGLIONE che fa una rissa in discoteca, da un COGLIONE DI ULTRA', da un COGLIONE CHE GETTA SASSI DA UN CAVALCAVIA o da un COGLIONE CHE ENTRA IN POLIZIA SOLO PER PESTARE.

Un COGLIONE e' UN COGLIONE e basta!

Non so voi, io ho sempre pensato che SANTIFICARE COGLIONI e viaggiare con la VERITA' IN TASCA fosse una prerogativa dei regimi dittatoriali.

Avete un cervello, non accenderlo e' un insulto alla vostra stessa persona.

Non firmo perche' ci tengo alla pelle.

Ciao.

ma che dittatura, che "sporchi assassini" !!!!
gli assassini siete voi, l'omicidio di Carlo e colpa vostra e solo vostra!!!! pensate due, tre quattro, cinque volte prima di parlare ... e soprattutto di agire !!!!!
siete vergognosi!!!!!!

stato criminale... assassini

fuck them

I live in Sweden, I was in Gothenburg.
Gothenburg was nothing compared to what the fascist police is doing in Genua right now. The way I see it, the police is now trying to prevent the truth from reaching all over the world.
I have been "discussing" with myself whether I think violence can be a method to fight capitalism/imperialism/all of it. Until today, I had not decided, although I thought that "perhaps".
I realize that the police and the army is better euqipped all so on, but the way I think when I lokk at these pictures is "Why shall we (the anti-capitalists) have to be killed/beaten up? Why not the authority/police?".
Of course, discussion shall be the primary way of solving a problem, but when the problem is like this...

No justice, no peace
fuck the police!

ONORE AI CARABINIERI E I POLIZZIOTTI ITALIANI CHE HANNO FATTO SOLO IL LORO DOVERE.

Bastardi assassini poliziotti.
Hasta la victoria siempre!!!

It is interesting how INDYmedia has creatively manipulated this information over the last couple of days.

In a previous post on this very website, you showed the same images at different sizes that prove that the man throwing the red tank is not the man killed by police. First of all, the man throwing the tank is in a white tank top t-shirt and (in your previous re-sized image) gray pants. The dead man in the street (in your previous posted images) was WEARING a black jacket, and dark blue pants. Now, in your later images, you have cropped out the gray pants of the red-tank-thrower, and removed an intermediate picture that shows the dead man WEARING the jacked. Pretty convenient, I say.

Did the man throwing the red tank have time to put on a jacket and change his pants before dying like a dog in the street? Or, are you manipulating the images to attempt to get a point across.

You call yourself INDYmedia, and may be independent of the major media sources, but this does not, obviously prevent you from being biased, and untruthful, and manipulative. Try again next time.

Empiezo comentando el acto de barbarie que me parece pegar tiros en la cabeza a un ser, en este caso humano.
Lo que no me parece una actitud muy inteligente es la del muchacho en cuestion. A quien se le ocurre ir con una bombona hacia un jeep policial tal y como estaban las cosas. ¿Que esperaba? Me parece un hecho tristisimo. Una muerte que no deberia haber sucedido, pero una muerte anunciada.
Tal vez los que ocupan esos medios de comunicacion y los "cerebros" de tales eventos se deberian preguntar antes de mandar a la guerra a la gente las consecuencias de sus llamamientos.
Siempre he creido que las causas, si son justas, no hace falta mantenerlas con la violencia. Ni siquiera el mas leve vandalismo tiene razon de ser.
Todas las causas asi defendidas han fracasado antes de empezar. El remedio peor que la enfermedad.
¿Ha oido alguien hablar del poder de la palabra? Ese es sin duda el camino correcto. La enorme cantidad de gente movilizada para la ocasion solo ha demostrado que la antiglobalizacion significa destrozar una bonita ciudad. Una pena. Tal vez con otros modos el mensaje hubiera llegado.

May the killing of Carlo Guiliani bring uprising against global capitalisum across the planet. This uprising must be based in community education and peacefull protest or the uprising will end in a hail of bullets and prisons full of revolutionaries, we are outgunned. I understand that there will always be window smashers and arsonists. They are not the backbone of a movement, they are pawns of the media. Boycott your oppressive government, you don't need them anymore. Boycott the oppressive corporations, you don't need them anymore. Take your bicycle, your garden, your solar pannels, composting toliets and your musical instruments and get on with your life. Share your new way of life with others. Let the corporations and greedy governments starve to death without your money.

Don't feed the machine.

...duh

A parole siamo tutti bravi.. provate voi a stare in una camionetta, con centinaia di pazzi scatenati intorno il cui solo desiderio è quello di ammazzarvi, avete la macchina bloccata, uno sta per tirarvi un estintore addosso... ditemi che cazzo fate ? Le vostre ideologie vanno a farsi benedire... gli sparate, e scappate a gambe levate!
Ma più che lamentarvi non sapete fare... non aspettavate altro che un morto, per avere il vostro martire, da santificare e ricordare negli anni.. scommetto che già state preparando le magliette e le bandiere con la faccia di Carlo Giuliani (pace all'Anima sua).
E' facile anche andare contro la Polizia e tutti i corpi di pubblica sicurezza.. d'altronde voi andate sistematicamente contro ogni regola, probabilmente per qualche sorta di invidia, dato che non riuscirete a fare nulla nella vostra vita... allora attaccate chi nella sua di vita è riuscito (capitalisti, capi di stato, ecc..). La nullità deve essere un grande problema da affrontare.
MA SVEGLIATEVI , E ANDATE A LAVORARE !
Carlo Giuliani.. facile fare di un pazzo un martire... ma dopo il Che tutto è possibile...
Ma tanto sono tutte parole sprecate.. se siete su questo sito è perchè simpatizzate con il GSF o con i Black Block, comunque sia è un problema vostro.. leggere le mie parole non servirà a nulla, anzi al massimo vi farà incazzare (o inkazzare, con la "k" che tanto amate), alla faccia della libertà di parola !
Prego.. continuate a lamentarvi.. almeno forse la vostra vità vi sembrerà avere più senso.

Ah.. un'ultima cosa.. parlo a quelli che minacciano chi non la pensa come loro, la prossima volta, fate il favore (a voi stessi) di non definirvi persone contro la violenza.. va bene essere ipocriti e incoerenti, ma essere buffoni è ben altro discorso !

The protester appears to be attacking police. I'd say it is too bad he didn't get out of the way sooner. Did he really think he could threaten a police vehicle with a heavy metal object and be safe. This is not protest. Those policemen are not "The Man" or "Capitalism" but are doing their job. The are human just like the protester. They carry guns for a reason, a reason which should be respected. If you are going to protest or disrespect cops, do so peacefully. Who will accept a legitimate statement born of thuggery?

ERANO 25 ANNI CHE NON VENIVA UCCISO UNA PERSONA IN UNA MANIFESTAZIONE, IL GOVERNO RAZZISTA E FASCISTA DEL SIGNOR BERLUSCONI E' SOLO ALL'INIZIO E CHISSA' QUANTI AMICI DOVREMO ANCORA PIANGERE...NON DOVRA' MAI PIU' SUCCEDERE.

Come si chiama il carabiniere che ha sparato?
Chi c'era su quell'auto?
Chi era il responsabile del turno?

I find myself agreeing with the posters complaining about bleating. For fuck's sake, it's class war, we can't expect to be treated softly by fascists. People should fucking arm themselves and meet the state on terms it understands, which is what this dude appears to have been doing.

"...duh"

Rather a poor attempt, but I suppose you cant expect much from a ten year old.

Dont worry friends, I havent gone far. Sadly the pressures of work (ill explain that later) mean I cant post as much as Id like to ...

io penso che l'autodifesa sia un diritto dovere di tutti i compagni maturi politicamente che se la sentono di dare questo ulteriore contributo al movimento, oltre alla partecipazione attiva e all' elaborazione politica.
perciò non si può lasciare questo importanza aspetto della nostra futura esistenza come persone e come realtà politico-culturale all'improvvisazione, pur generosa, del momento.
dobbiamo democraticamente discutere delle forme e caratteristiche di questa ulteriore struttura del movimento che va ad affiancarsi e rafforzare le altre: coordinamento legale, informazione audio/video/telematica, servizio sanitario. non gruppi di violenti o soldatini al servizio di qualcuno, non siamo e non saremo mai come quegli zombi che ci siamo trovati davanti-intendo il blue and grey bloc- quello degli sbirri, ma capacità di proteggere tutti dalle provocazioni di black più o meno strafatti e abbondantemente infiltrati e strumentalizzati ad arte dagli sgherri del berlusca e dalla ferocia scientificamente applicata dalle forze del (dis)ordine: anche i meno giovani e forti o, perchè no, i bambini devono poter dare il loro prezioso e benvenuto contributo senza rischiare troppo! il servizio d'ordine, non è il massimo come definizione ma facciamo a capirci, deve poter assicurare il raggiungimento degli obbiettivi tattico-politici della manifestazione e perciò non solo deve essre in grado di poter reggere all'urto delle prime cariche, ma deve conoscere bene il terreno in modo da poter deviare verso vie alternative il corteo per continuare, o per eventuali ritirate più o meno tattiche ma comunque col massimo di sicurezza, insomma non eroi o rambi ma bravi compagni che attraverso un'efficiente e veloce passaggio di info e direttive possano guidare i cortei e altro fuori pericolo e verso i loro obiettivi comunemente decisi. parliamone e cominciamo a elaborare una nostra originale pratica. aldo rotolo

I am also angry with the minority of people causing violence in Genoa, The Police.
How can a fire extinguisher equate to a bullett?
Anyone who was in Genoa saw the armoured clothing the police wore. We felt the fear of sudden unjustified attacks. No-where was safe.
We knew who the enemy was was and it was not Guiliani or the rest of the Black Block.
Windows do not cry but the families of the 19,000 children who die every day due to 3rd World debt do.
I personnally don't see property destruction and fighting with the police as a way to challenge world Capitalism but I along with 1000's of others wore a black armband in mourning for our brother Carlos Giulliani on Saturdays demonstration. There is no doubt in my mind where violence comes from and that is the state.

Actually, I cannot see why I should believe that the scene in picture 1 has got anything to do with #2 or #3 (the other 6 are lacking anyway). Has the man raising the tank on #1 been partly undressed and stripped of his balaklava after having been shot and run over? Are we really watching Carlo Giuliani on this first picture? I have my doubts.
That a gun is pointed at the man raising the tank would not be too surprising. Police offiers have been known to point guns in situations which were less dangerous for them.
Still, I must think of a quotation of Pasolini's, about class struggle: a student throwing a stone at a policeman is a bourgeois fighting a proletarian.
In Genova fighting some cop was not was what at stake.

David Leahy - whose name as far as I can see is Irish, so one would better be careful about his anglophone background - of course is provocative. But still he has a point to make, which people who with any sense left call themselves anarchists have to answer in a way differetn from what I have been reading.

It is after all not about Carlo Giuliani or David Leahy.
The dead due to the World Order are falling in Indonesia, Burundi, China, Sri Lanka etc.

If you think Carlo Giuliani your first martyr, there really is reason to pity you!

SIETE I RESPONSABILI DI QUESTA MORTE!!!
vIGLIACCHI PERCHE' NON AVETE IL CORAGGIO NEPPURE DI FAR VEDERE LE FOTO COMPLETE E LE TAGLIATE AD ARTE COME QUEI MEZZI DI INFORMAZIONE DI SINISTRA...
AVRESTE VOI, PRIMA DI TUTTO DOVUTO ISOLARE I VIOLENTI, MA SO BENE CHE NON CI SIETE RIUSCITI PERCHE' EVIDENTEMENTE FACEVANO PARTE DI VOI.
NON AVRETE MAI DIGNITA', PERCHE' I VOSTRI LEADER SONO PERSONE CHE HANNO PAURA DI ASSUMERSI LE PROPRIE RESPONSABILITA', SANNO SOLO DIRE "ARMIAMOCI E PARTITE" COSI' COME IL POVERO CARLO (E RISPETTO LA SUA PERSONA) SIETE SEMPRE VOI "MARMAGLIA AD ANDARCI DI MEZZO, A GIOCARVI LA VITA, SE PER VOI HA UN QUALCHE VALORE, E LORO SI METTONO IN MOSTRA PER I PROPRI ESCLUSIVI INTERESSI:
STATE SBAGLIANDO TUTTO, RAGAZZI, PERCHE' AGNOLETTO E CASARINI VI STANNO USANDO PER IL LORO INTERESSE...
WALTER

UNS REICHT DIE WUT NICHT
UND NICHT DIE TRAUER
IHR WERDET UNS ALLES BEZAHLEN
UND IHR BEZAHLT ES TEUER

Soldaten sind MÖRDER
PolizistInnen sind MÖRDER

Solidarität mit dem Gefallenen im Klassenkampf!!!!

Auf das sich unsere Trauer und unsre Wut in Widerstand wandeln wird

I'm afraid I'll never make a good right-winger. I just don't have the requisite viciousness.

After my prior comments on David Leahy, he responded with "Im [sic] certainly not filled with hate at the moment. Im more filled with beaujolias [sic]..." His good mood was not to last for long, for in the very next sentence he said, "Anyway, back to todays [sic] lesson: 'Comprehension for Retards' " My point, in my first post, was that he was vicious. Insulting people falls under viciousness. I notice that he decided to keep his favorite derogatory term at the expense of the developmentally challenged.

The "retard" vein continues as he tries to belittle those who disagree with him: "Well I think ive [sic] irratated [sic] quite a few people here, but Ive [sic] yet to encounter one that deserves the accolade of 'smart'" In further posts, he repeatedly calls opponents "retards." The point here is that he is the intelligent one and those who disagree are morons.

After all this time spent telling us that he is the only light of wisdom in a very dim corner of the web, he goes on to say, "I havent [sic] apologised for anybody...." Excuse me, that is how this all got started. He was apologising for the officer's actions. He has occasionally thrown around vocabulary like 'pontificate,' as well as 'erudite' on another page, am I to believe to that he does not know that apologise means offer justification or defense? Perhaps he does not possess the sagacity (I threw that in just for him.) to realise that he was, in fact, apologising.

He goes on to display his awesome acumen (Another one I've thrown in for Mr. leahy.) by assuming we are all unsuccessful: "I am reponsible for myself, and myself alone. I realise responsibility is an unpopular concept around here, but then, thats [sic] your choice. Thats [sic] probably why you arent [sic] as successful in life as you feel you have a right to be." This after posting the following IN THE SAME COMMENT NO LESS: "Wow, you can read all that into comments made simply to correct Retards [sic] delusional rantings? I dont [sic] suppose you know what the Lottery numbers will be next week...." Wow, you can tell how successful we all are by what we write? I do not suppose YOU know what the lottery numbers are next week, do you? I think you would be quite surprised indeed, if you knew how much money I make Mr. Leahy, not to mention my less material successes.

If Mr. Leahy were anywhere near as intelligent as he wants us all to believe, he would have been able to put together a better argument in support of the policeman's actions. He could have written one like that of "Dave" who, at the tender age of 17, wrote "Playing devils advocate" at 9:29am on Monday, July 23 on another page. What we got from Mr. Leahy pales in comparison.

I might offer back to him the same advice he gave in a yet another post: "Learn to put forward a proper arguement, [sic] or just fuck off and leave the rest of us to get on with our lives."

HAS CONCLUIDO TU POEMA?DICE LA LUNA EN MI VENTANA.
NO.TODO ESTE DIA MI TAREA FUE COMBATIR.
VUELVE MAÑANA.

HO-CHI-MINH

creo que este mundo esta mal, aquel joven que murio, murio pòr una causa, un sueño, mejor dicho exijir lo imposible, su lucha y sangre no sera en vano. de la sangre derramada brotaran mil combatientes seguidos de mil màs luchando en contra de un sistema injusto desigual que faborece a los ricos y los pobres siguen con una miseria, pero llegara el dia donde lo que ha sido para varios la vida una pesadilla se transforme en un sueño justo donde cada fascista sera ajusticiado por el pueblo. en nuestra memorias estas carlo giuliani siempre presente activo y combatiente. continuara la lucha callegera. bebe y lucha.

Remember, It is better to die on your feet than live on your knees. Fuck the police. One more martyr.

Cuanto horror mas hay que aguantar soportar?
seguiremos desilusionados pasivos frente a esto?
Esto que sucede día a día en cada rincón del mundo.
Como en un r.show espectadores inocentes del genocidio globalizado
muchos observan
con la pupila fría negra
como el caño de esa pistola.
Mientras tanto estos fascistas asesinos siguen asesinando
condenándonos al hambre
a la explotación.
A los que dicen.. bueno pero el muchacho también mira lo
que iba a hacer...
Les digo:
SI el muchacho también MIREN lo que iba a hacer dolido de injusticia
levanto ese extinguidor tratando de apagar la Violencia Fascista!
Carlo no fue espectador "inocente". De qué hay que ser "inocente"?
frente al fascismo globalizado.

Vogliamo giustizia!E basta!

Having spoken with an eye-witness now I know that the person at picture #1 indeed is the same as on #2 and #3.
Call me stupid if you will, but I never would have thought anyone would have tried to re-animate Carlo G. and for that purpose had undressed him. If there had been any chance to re-animate him successfully that would have been really stupid.
If it is a fire extinguisher he is raising against the police car the only thing you can say about that is, that such a thing is not as heavy as David L. suggests, and it is not life threatening for the police officer who shoots him.
This may not be new to most of you, but I was in doubt until yesterday evening.
If it is in any way wise or a good form of taking action is another matter which is not of interest in interpreting the photo series.
The fact that the officer was in a shock afterwards seems to be evidence he realised he was not in any real danger. And the police - or rather their superiors - were after a good riot anyway, what with all these stories about bombs etc. and hundreds of body bags in store.
Yes, it is awful - but still I would like most of the participants to remember what the protest in Genova was all about, and think again about whom you consider to be your first martyr. There is no first martyr. Carlo G. is another martyr.
And as far as David L. is concerned: whatever happened to him? Had too much wine again? Apart from mis-spelling the name I would say you do not show off very well with Beaujolais. Let us forget about him, and think hard about "What is to be done?" next (no, that is not a Wladimir Ilyich original, Tolstoy and a narodnik whose name escapes me now were way ahead of Lenin).

sure, a cop has a right to protect himself; but there is a huge difference between legitimate self-defense and shooting a man twice in the head at point blank range. That is murder.

Carlo, il mio cuore e' a Genova con te.

forse la gente non ha capito una cosa.
penso che se carlo aveva in mano un estintore e lo stava per lanciare(tralasciando il fatto che vorremmo sapere dove l'ha trovato e come se l'è portato a genova), quel pomeriggio, era perchè lui, come me e come tutti quelli che stavano a genova, aveva qualcosa dentro che è scoppiato, rabbia.
penso che quella rabbia non può venire dal nulla ma è stata creata da un determinato satto di cose.loro hanno creato questo e chi stava a genova era gente che ha deciso di reagire.chi ballando a piedi nudi chi brandendo bastoni.
è dalla stessa rabbia che è nato tutto, questo si fatica a capire, i modi di contestare sono dettati dal proprio tipo di reazione e dal proprio contesto sociale e dalla propria storia.
penso che nessuno può condannare chi ha deciso di manifestare in modo diverso proprio x questo.
se una forza violenta si è fatta vedere a genova, è perchè qualcuno quella violenza l'ha voluta, l'ha alimentata, e ha dato buone ragioni a un ragazzo per presentarsi con le spranghe.
riguardo tutto il resto, io ho solo tanta paura di quello che si sta creando attorno ai fatti di genova.ho paura e sono incazzata nera(adesso mi daranno della blackblock!).

g.(che a genova non ha lanciato neanche un granello di polvere).

...I'm on the verge of tears for this young man's family; and the loss of this beautiful boy...

Of course, now, we have a real martyre

July 20th will be a landmark in European socialist
history

He did not die in vain...

He is with G-d...

my condolences,
Roberto
U.S.A.

THIS IS A PICTURE THAT EVERY COP AND EVERY IRRESPONSIBLE CITIZEN SHOULD SEE AND ALWAYS ASK HIMSELF "WHAT IF HE WAS MY SON?". WOULD HE FIND REASONS TO EXCUSE CARLOS' RAGE? WOULD HE FIND REASONS WHY EVERYONE OF US SHOULD BE ON THE ROAD FIGHTING FOR OUR RIGHTS?

Because it makes a more compelling case
that the shooting was NOT self-defense.

On-line at http://longusername.worldonline.co.uk/

Check it out.

Thanks, R. Alford - the sequence of 15 pictures gives the story, and accounts for the changing/stripping of clothes.
Now we can see Carlo might have been rescued - the possibilty would have been small, but it could nnot be tried - if he had not been run over by the car which turned out to be not to be in some kind of cul-de-sac.Or by the charging police!
Discussing about what is to be done can be purued elsewhere. I am glad there are no more provocations on this page.
And in case it still is diificult to understand :I did not say Carlo is NOT a martyr. he is A martyr. (You cannot say "just a" martyr, since you cannot say about anyopne that he or she is just one martyr.
THEY cannot win - they can only lose -, so we shall.

Forze dell'ordine vergonatevi
ciao Carlo.....

Someone else suggested that the shirt may have been
put on Carlo by the police to make him look more
like an anarchist. I really cannot speculate. Does the
shirt look like a carabinieri's shirt to you, Henri?

Another good set of pics is available at
http://www.nauseamanifesto.com

This site is being advertised elsewhere at italy.indymedi.org:

http://www.sherwood.it/sherwoodcomunicazione/testimonianze/indexitaliano.ppt

Well I think the shirt Carlo is wearing at some stage in the photo series does look like a policeman's. But there may be other or better looks on that. So anyone...?

I do not think there was a special interst in accentuating Carlo was an anarchist after the shots - was he, actually, or did he become one instantaneously thanks to the police violence? -, after the running over his body, after the charge which looked more important than any attempt at rescuing him - maybe he was beyond rescuing, but we will never know.
Also showing in the photo sequence: the policeman who did it was in a shock after all. He is only a bloke even younger than his victim, who realised his bravado had turned him into a killer. Looks like his life has been ruined, even though he is alive. We do not yet know what further consequences his shots will have. For him personally, and for the movement which he attacked.
I think it would be politically unwise to say: serves him right, he should not have joined the police in the first place. No, he should not have. But he did. The state is a machine which destroys people at both sides. I hope any action in the future will be done with this in mind, and will not be about "revenge" - a word popping up too much in several languages at this place. What does this revenge mean? Shooting back? Come off it!

Apologies to Henri Frederico for not forgetting about David Leahy as he asked.


I decided to take a closer look at Mr. Leahy's arguments as he seems to consider them logical and has told us to make a logical argument. In doing so, I have found numerous formal and informal fallacies. I am choosing to highlight Mr. Leahy over others who have made errors in logic (including his opponents) because he has been the most abusive while calling for logic at the same time.

I will not make a complete list of his errors of logic for reasons of space and to consume less of the readers time. In addition, the errors include those he made in posts up to around 12am Tokyo time on Friday.

Firstly, his posts (including several on other pages) contain no less than 103 abusive and circumstantial ad hominem fallacies (eg. retard, fool, idiots, vagrant, etc.). Such comments are irrelevant to any argument. This list does not include any of the multiple tu quoque ad hominem errors.

Next, there are numerous fallacies of presumption including 10 complex questions. (eg. "It really does point to some deep rooted psychological disorder. How prevalant is this problem amongst the 'movement'?" The question itself assumes that psychological disorders are prevalent.) Of all the questions he poses (on all pages), 62.5% are complex questions. Quite an achievement in illogic.

There are also a number of false dichotomies (eg. kill or be killed, or kill or be maimed, assuming that there are no other possibilities). On a number of occassions he has used red herring arguments to confuse the issue (eg. his idea of trying to beat yourself with a fire extinguisher is an irrelevancy, another occured when one poster made the point, correctly, that the shot needn't have been a double tap to the head. Mr. Leahy's response was to offer a red herring by talking about criticizing the carabinieri's actions "in our comfy chairs, sipping a nice cup of tea...." The comfort of our chairs or the quality of our tea, which I was, in fact, sipping when I read the post, are irrelevant to the possibility of non-lethal use of force.

There are a number of hasty generalizations about the protesters and posters alike. On another page, he an error of compostion by implying that capitalism is good because some parts of it are good ("advanced transport... shelter... sustenance... a means to share information....").

All of these errors, perhaps made out of anger, bring us no closer to finding the answer of whether or not the carabinieri over-reacted.

I would like to try to state a rational case from first principals without jumping any steps. None of what I'll say will be very controversial, I think. If you find an error, I'd like to know but please don't weaken your argument with an ad hominem.

You should not kill. Taking the life of another is the most terrible thing you can do to that person.

Is there a time when you can kill?

One case would be to prevent one person from killing another person or persons. This case is not applicable to our argument, so I'll ignore it.

Another case is to prevent someone from killing you. While killing your attacker is evil, the greater evil is your own death. Furthermore, the attacker's motive is to end a life, your motive is to save a life, namely your own. The problem that arises is that there must be 100% certainty that you will be killed if you do not kill your attacker. To clarify, you have no other option but to kill to save your life. Such a situation is hypothetically possible but extremely unlikely.

Thinking that somone will kill you is not sufficient enough cause to kill as there is the possibility that you will not be killed. Again, you need to be certain that you will be killed and that you have no other option but to kill. If other possibilities exist and you do kill, you would be commiting the greater evil. Thus arguments like 'he didn't know' or 'he didn't have time to make to right decision' are arguments that do not support lethal action.

If there is a 100% certainty that you would be killed, there must also be a 100% certainty that non-lethal force would not work. If there is a possibility that non-lethal force could save you but you kill your attacker, you have ended his/her life needlessly. This is an unjust amount of force and is not right. You have stopped the evil act of your life being taken but have created a greater evil by killing needlessly.

Also, killing to prevent certain or possible injury is unjust as the evil or killing someone is worse than the evil of being hurt by someone. Thus the argument of killing to prevent "grievous boldily harm" is logically incorrect.

In the case of Carlo's shooting death, there is neither a 100% certainty that he would have killed the officer nor that non-lethal force would not have worked to stop Carlo.

It appears from the photo that he was going to throw the fire extinguisher into the rear window of the jeep but this is not certain. Had he indeed been intending to throw it in the window, it could have bounced off the window frame and missed it's mark. There is a possibility that the fire extinguisher could have gone in the window perfectly and killed the officer on the spot or later in hospital. This however is not 100% certain. He could have thrown the extinguisher in the window and caused some degree of injury (from light to serious) that would have been non-lethal. There was also the unlikely chance the the extinguisher would go in and miss the officer altogether (though this is highly unlikely). All of these examples are 'non-zero' possibilities and thus point out uncertainty.

For the officer's part, there were options on his behalf as well. He could have fired at the roof of the jeep to try and scare Carlo off. He could have shot Carlo's leg. He could have put up his hands with locked arms to block the extinguisher (painful, but avoiding pain is not a reason to kill). He might have been able to move out of the way, etc. There were many options available to him at the time.

The lack of 100% certainty that the officer would have been killed and the lack of 100% certainty that lethal force was necessary make the lethal use of force unreasonable.


As an aside, this points out the incredible dangers involved being a just policeman. I have a number of friends in Canada, Britain and here in Japan who are police officers and I admire their courage but, try as I might, I would not be able to support them logically had they ever committed an act such as this. I might still support them as friends (and probably would support them, as my Canadian friends were extremely helpful when my own father was murdered in 1997) but a logical argument supporting them would be impossible.

Again I may be wrong by making a logical error somewhere. If I have, please let me know. (Minus any insults as they weaken your argument.) Also, as a rule, don't make an emotion filled argument. The chance of making an error skyrockets up if you do so . And if there is something that you are 'just dying to say,' you'd better look at it very closely for logical errors.



If I had more time, I would have liked to have made an argument against Carlo's illogical actions and the illogical actions of the others rioting. David Leahy has made some very good arguments against them (minus the ad hominems) and I will use some of the same arguments if I post on the subject in the future.

In the meantime, don't shoot yourselves in the foot.

Non mi schiero politicamente da nessuna parte , inrealtà non so neanche che cazzo significa essere di Destra e Di Sinistra , non sono neanche anarchico, sono contro qualsiasi forma di estremismo......ma cazzo quello che dico io perchè tutta questa gente non se ne stata a casa...era scritto che sarebbe successo..........scusate ma avete visto come erano armati? Il bello che la Tv lo aveva anticipato che ci fosse stato questo schieramento! Comunque in tutti i casi spero che la morte di questo ragazzo non sia solo un brutta nuvola!!!
Il comportamento della polizia non va giustificato però finiamola di strumentalizzare il tutto.....le cose o si dimostrano e si fa in modo che chi deve pagare paga, oppure meglio stare zitti e riflettere, tanto la violenza non cesserà mai di esistere, e nel mondo ci saranno sempre ricchi e poveri!!!
Adesso mi fa ancora + schifo di prima la politica di merda, ma pensate a campare che tanto la libertà non ve la toglie nessuno e semmai un giorno qualcuno vorrà farlo voi rispondetegli come cazzo volete, magari quello vi ammazza e voi morirete liberi!!!
Mi fate schifo politici del cazzo, adesso l'ulivo sta marciando sulla morte del povero ragazzo........
MI FATE SCHIFO!!!!!

I don't love violence, but I feel happy every time I see a dying policeman, they're killers, useless to human kind, a trouble to get a new society

They're not people, they're policemen

GORA ETA
POLICIA ASESINA

Johnny,

The police are not faceless monsters (some of them are actually monsters with faces but...). I know police in many countries and one thing they have in common is they all hang out with each other. When you get into their circles, you find that they reaffirm the same ideas to each other again and again. The bad thing is that these ideas are usually facist. Moreover, they are incredibly easy to shoot down. When I talk with friends who are police officers, they either have too shut up and keep their illogical ideas to themselves, change or get intellectually ripped to shreds.

Now, if you REALLY want to do something radical, join the police force. I'm not kidding. This is, in fact, a strategy that has been used before. In the 60's in the US, African Americans started to join the force to soften it from the inside. The same technique was used for the military by pacifists during the Vietam war and WWII (perhaps other wars as well).

Don't hate the police. Become the police.

Honour to carlo juliani-death to those who try to control our life-death to those who protects them-Revange for carlo juliani blood.anarchistic front in greece.
Honeur pour carlo juliani-baise la police.
No more peaceful protests-war with those who kill us,war with those who want to take from us our freedom.
black blockers.

Se c'ero io.. se fossi stato io il carabiniere.
NO.
NO. Non c'eri tu. C'era un carabiniere vero. addestrato a fare il suo lavoro, nel rappresentare lo stato. e lo stato non dovrebbe uccidere (il condizionale è un fottuto obbligo oramai..).
Solo tristezza e rabbia.

complimenti a tutti voi che avete votato quel coglione...
complimenti x aver contribuito a un regime fascista
alla creazione di uno stato di polizia
alla crezione di uno stato repressivo di stampo cileno.
complimenti x esservi venduti a un commerciante di voti e plagiatore che gioca con la politica

At any time before his dead Carlo Giuliani was able to act differently and just walk away. But he did not.

Before g8 meeting it was clearly seeing at indymedia pages that there are people going Genova just go fight against police. Maybe Carlo felt that he must do the same.

But he made up that decision himself.

Was Carlo murdered by police or police under lethal attack.

See more pictures at


http://www.repubblica.it/gallerie/online/politica/uccisione/index.html

Se volte dire la vostra e fare un omaggio a carlo questo e' l'url del post per Carlo Giulianihttp://pub65.ezboard.com/fifansdipaolafrm0.showMessage?topicID=43.topic

It seems ludicrous to argue that anyone in this situation was acting in an appropriate mannor. Attacking or provoking police is clearly a misguided action. It is simply a lack of common sense to propose that belligerent attitudes and propaganda will lead to any sort of constructive change. Anyone using this or previous incidents to promote violence against police, while promising change or martyrdom as the result, should be ashamed. You may as well have held this poor boy up as a target.

It is equally ludicrous to applaud the shooting of a protester in the face. This incident is unfortunate and could/should have been avoided. The fact that an officer had to use lethal force is nothing short of tragic. Certainly thier were better options for the police, but perhaps we should look at ways to avoid creating situations that may yield these sorts of fatal results, from both sides.

Peaceful protests do make an impact! Violent protests will result in escalated violence and dwindling support. If a protester is attacking police he is justifying the use of force to stop him and possibly harm him, although this case is clearly excessive.

How to explain the violence? 'Peacekeeper' wrote, "Peaceful protests do make an impact! Violent protests will result in escalated violence and dwindling support."

The police realise this, this is why they had agent provocateurs in the 'Black Bloc.' Or so journalists and protesters alike have claimed. The violent 'protesters' give TV cameras something to point their cameras at and say, 'tsk tsk.' This is NOT a new technique, it has been used in the past by police, FBI and the CIA. I'm not up on European covert actions but from Genoa, we see that they are no slouches. Mind you, they did receive some training from the LAPD (literally).

What on earth can we do to fight such techniques? Two things:
1) Continue to expose them.
2) Don't hate the police, become the police. They have infiltrators, we need more of our own. This technique, too, is not nothing new.

RUBBERBULLETS

Il comportamento di alcuni manifestanti è stato sconvolgente,ma suppongo che nessuno di noi sia cascato giu dal pero.come tutti voi,penso,avevo previsto una vera e propria guerriglia...il solo modo per evitarla era proibire la manifestazione o riuscire a bloccare i black b. prevenendo il delirio e permettendo ai pacifisti di manifestare le loro idee in tranquillita...queste misure di sicurezza non sono state prese...hanno rotto i coglioni per mesi terrorizzando gli ignoranti sull argomento con balle a base di palloncini all hiv e guerra urbana....E ALLORA PERCHE NON BATTERSI AD ARMI PARI SIGNORI ANTI SOMMOSSA?PERCHE NON PREPARARLI COME SI DEVE QUESTI ADDETTI AL MANTENIMENTO DELL ORDINE AL POSTO CHE INCULCARLI LA VIOLENZA CON LE ARMI IN MANO?PERCHE HANNO IL DIRITTO DI METTERCI LE MANI,E NN SOLO,ADDOSSO?e guardandoqueste foto mi viene una tristezza.....

...hanno voluto uccidere due persone. Una è morta fisicamente,l'altra è morta dentro.
per il resto..non ho piu pèarole!

NON DIMENTICHERO MAI QUEL RAGAZZO CONOSCIUTO SOLO TRAMITE TV ,MA CHE SENTO VICINO A ME OGNI SECONDO.CIAO CARLO

Hanno violentato la mia città, hanno ucciso vicino casa mia un ragazzo della mia età.Hanno cambiato qualcosa nella mia mente e nel suo modo di pensare il dissenso.La memoria non si cancella fascisti del cazzo!

All Cops are Bastards!!
But for real: what did you expect in a country with a fashist president who´s running big media-buissenes??(by the way, what kind of state-form is this-mediacraty???)

Killer:
Cop's
Capitalism
OMC
FMI
NAFTA
EURO
DOLLAR
USA!!!!!!!!!!

I thought that you were going to enlighten us all. What
happened? I know that I made you look like a buffon
(actually, you made you look like a buffon), but it was fun
to imagine the veins popping out on your forhead. Care to
give us any more specious and illogical posts?

David, you have NO integrity whatsoever. You should be busy here apologising for your comments in light of investigations into police actions in Genoa. You are beyond contempt.

Mr. Leahy, you are beyond contempt.

Five months on and you are still despicable.
Any decent human being would have come back and apologied
for saying the sort of things you said. But then again,
you are not a decent human being.

The time for politeness passed in 2002. You lazy punk, Leahy, you get your ass back here and apologise!